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Old 30-07-2007, 10:05 AM   KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #1
Ranman
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Baseball History

This thread will probably get more responses from American's but I'm sure my overseas friends will comment on it. Baseball history is about to me made. Barry Bonds is about to break Hank Aaron's Homerun record. It is hardly being mentioned in the news. He is at 754 and the record is 755. A lot people say he doesn't deserve the record because of steroid use. I have mixed feeling on this. Yes it gives today's players an unfair advantage over players from yesterday but I feel if it was available back then they would have taken them as well. And steroids have been around for a long time and they were no drug test for them 50 years ago so who knows for sure if they weren't taking them. This affects other sports, many records in all sports will be broken with the use of steroids. Do today's players deserve to break the old records? I say yes. Having muscles doesn't give you the talent it takes to play the game. It might make you hit, kick or throw further but that isn't enough to make you great.
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Old 30-07-2007, 11:38 AM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Administrator #2
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its a slight generalisation that *all* sports people use steroids.
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Old 30-07-2007, 12:16 PM   KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #3
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I never said all sports people used them, I said that many records will be broken in all sports with the use of steroids
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Old 30-07-2007, 01:33 PM   First Class Member KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #4
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Babe Ruth was a real man. He didn't need steriods to hit the ball out of the park...just bloody steaks, booze like it was water and more tail than Frank Sinatra could've gotten in two lifetimes.
And, he didn't have the advantage afforded Bonds (or Aaron for that matter) by newer technology. He swung a telephone pole at a ball stuffed with feathers and cotton candy. With today's lighter, faster bat and tightly wound balls, Ruth might well have hit over 1000 homeruns.
To be honest, steroids are only part of the equation. Rule changes, improved equipment and improvements in field (pitch...for you Brits) technology play a huge part as well. Jim Brown held the NFL rushing record for over twenty years before it was broken by Walter Payton. Jim Brown spent nine years amassing over 12,000 yards rushing on a chewed up grass field in Cleveland in a league where it was perfectly alright to grab a player's facemask in order to make a tackle. Walter Payton ran on astroturf in a league where grabbing his facemask meant a fifteen yard penalty and an automatic first down.
I doubt Barry Sanders would have ever gotten anywhere near Jim Brown's record had he played in the 1950s and 60s. Lightning quick cuts are a hell of a lot easier on astroturf than they are on loose dirt, spray painted green. All that's without even mentioning rules changes as far as pass interference goes. When Jim Brown played, it was often against five man fronts and three linebackers. Eight men in the box wasn't some fancy way to stop the run, but simply the way you played defense. Of course, when Jim Brown played, he was something of an anomaly. At 6' 2" and about 220#s, he was as big, if not bigger, than most linebackers. And, he was usually the fastest man on the field. But then, Jim Brown gained all of his yards during twelve game seasons. Walter Payton played in an era of transition from 14 game to 16 game seasons, most of them in the latter. Barry Sanders and Emmitt Smith never played a season that didn't have 16 games.
The more you look at sports over time, the easier it is to see places to put the asteriks.
What would Juan Manuel Fangio or A.J. Foyt have done with cars of today? Perhaps Foyt would have won twice as many Indy 500s, Daytona 500s (and 24 Hours of) and 24 Hours of LeMans titles (not to mention a few more Formula One races) with todays technology? Would Fangio's Formula One record ever been eclipsed? Perhaps...perhaps not. Perhaps today's technology would have negated the cunning and raw strength required to get the racecars of yesterday around the track.
How good would George Best be with today's perfectly manicured pitches, feather light shoes, balls that are actually round and LITE beer?
As for the original question, I don't think it really matters if an asterik is placed next to his name in the record books or not, because 20 or 30 years from now, there'll be some kid with arms as big as my thighs, jacked up on some sort of shit that medical science hasn't even thought of breaking the yearly homerun record every year and we'll harken back to the good ol' days of Barry Bonds and Mark McGwire.

This is fun Randy! Bravo on a great thread idea.
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Old 30-07-2007, 01:41 PM   KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #5
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Babe Ruth was the best. I wish I was around to see him play. The best line ever about him had to be from Ty Cobb(I heard it the movie Cobb so I assume its true) "He ran good for a fat man". Also I believe he hit his Homeruns in less at bats than Aaron.
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Old 30-07-2007, 08:13 PM   Senior Registered Member #6
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As Bonds is running the bases on his 756 homer, feel free to do one of the following:

-Light one of his baseball cards and hold it up like a lighter at a concert

-Catch the ball and throw it back. You'll never have to pay for a drink the rest of your life.

-Hold up four fingers on each hand -44- Hank Aaron's number

-Hold up a big sign: SEVEN FILTHY SIX

-Women, pull a black veil over your face. Men, pin on a black carnation.

-Call the Federal Correctional Institution in Dublin, California and ask to speak to Greg Anderson. He's the convicted steroids dealer-and Bond's personal trainer and friend-who's spent 10 months in jail for refusing to testify before a grand jury looking into possibly perjury and tax-evasion charges against Bonds. Ask Anderson what he's going to want from Bonds when he gets out. Like, say, his own personal state.

-Call the Hall of Fame and ask which cap will appear on Bond's head in his Cooperstown exhibit- the size 7, 7.5 or 8?

-Pull out a copy of "Game of Shadows" and begin reading aloud how Bonds used steroids, human growth hormone, insulin, testosterone decanoate, bovine steroids and female fertility drugs to help him set this record. And then watch Bonds step on home and point to God.

-If you're watching on the tele, flip to something a little more plausible, like "Armageddon".

-Hold up a big sign that says 650, which is the about how many home runs Bonds would have if you replaced the homer totals from his alleged juicing years (99 to 04) with his prejuce pace of 32 a season.

-Send rabbits' feet, four-leaf clovers and two-headed pennies to Alex Rodriguez and Ken Griffey Jr., letting them know that you're pulling for them to pass Bonds like he's a hitchhiker in an orange jumpsuit.

-Hold up a big sign: FLAXSEED WORKS!

-Jump onto the field and give commissioner Bud Selig a hug, for he's a Milwaukee native who loved watching Hank Aaron, and his fondest wish was probably to see Bonds fall down an elevator shaft.

Get Bonds's autograph at the ballpark- on the bottom of an affidavit that reads, "I set this record with the help of performance-enhancing drugs. I am a very large jerk for doing so."

-Squirt juice out of a giant syringe.





Thank you Rick Reilly.
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Old 30-07-2007, 09:30 PM   KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frodo1511 View Post

-Call the Hall of Fame and ask which cap will appear on Bond's head in his Cooperstown exhibit- the size 7, 7.5 or 8?




That sums it up nicely
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Old 30-07-2007, 11:32 PM   Officer #8
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I hate Bonds. Aaron will always be the King. With that said, I'm thinking of buying bleacher seat tickets at Dodger Stadium when the Giants come to town and the record isn't broken yet. Though I personally don't care for either team (I actually hate the Dodgers), I wouldn't mind making some dough if I happen to catch the ball.


I can't wait til A-ROD breaks Bonds' record. That day will be awesome. And hopefully he does it in an Angels uniform! Yeeeeahh!

Last edited by Renegade; 31-07-2007 at 12:18 AM. Reason: more to add
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Old 31-07-2007, 01:22 AM   Officer #9
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As a native San Franciscan and a Giants fan, I tend to disagree with people who despise Barry Bonds and his quest for the home run title. Seriously, you cannot say that he cheated. He's never tested positive for steroids. He said that he did not know what he was taking. In the court of law, this would be circumstantial evidence to PROVE that he did not use steroids. In the court of public opinion, people are usually proven guilty before their innocence, and even when they are proven innocent, most people have trouble getting over their first impressions.

At any rate, I have my doubts as to whether Bonds took steroids. For me, it doesn't really matter. People have been getting on Bonds' case for many things--including his truculence and ire for the media. (And don't tell me that that doesn't affect how sportswriters write articles about him; if he doesn't like sportswriters, then who's the one writer who would support him?) And because we don't really have much else to go on except for some lousy books and whatever articles that many journalists write (whose opinions are certainly not impartial, and certainly have something to say against Bonds), then our own opinions--as secondary as they are in knowledge--do not stand pat in truest sense of our judgment.

I agree with Hasselbrad that things have changed, and the sports have evolved. But think of this: we look back at Hank Aaron and Babe Ruth, and we think they are legends. We forgive them for every fault and human error, and because they did it first, they deserve the credit. Sorry for Barry Bonds for being belated, and living in a time when competition in professional sports is so fierce, that even a great player like Bonds may succumb to the temptations of steroid use. And think about the racial issue at stake here: how many people wondered about the change in Mark McGwire's size when he was with the Athletics to the Cardinals? NO ONE. So he used androstendione. So what, said the majority public. After all, he's a good All-American boy, does nothing wrong, and everyone praised him--from the top down--for beating Maris.

So in comes Bonds, who is surlier and more gruff in attitude, and he comes and completely eclipses McGwire. Suddenly the public is on him like a cheap suit, and deriding him for possible use of steroids. What? Don't tell me we have a double standard working in sports. And Sammy Sosa? Well, he had a corked bat, so obviously his home runs are somewhat a sham, too.

(And remember the hearings on steroids: Mark McGwire was not absolutely vilified for his testimony. Indeed, instead of being hated, he's now simply ignored. The same with Rafael Palmeiro. I think, what it comes down to, is that baseball is too steeped in tradition--and so are the other major professional sports. This is not to say that I condone steroid use, but the fact remains that Barry Bonds is NOT THE ONLY ONE who may have used them. So you point the finger at Bonds for breaking Aaron's record; it's only a record, and records were meant to be broken. If it comes to the fact that Bonds used steroids, then hell, one should make the case that we tone down all our conditioning and training, and bring it back to the style of the deadball era. That certainly sounds like fun...)

I do hope that Bonds will eclipse Aaron, and possibly even reach 800. He has nothing much left to play for (since the Giants suck big-time this year), and to see a gruff man like him smile for a change, it's rather rewarding for a fan.

One more thing: Barry Bonds, by the very definition of his roots, is a baseball legend. You cannot, and will not, take that away from him, no matter what he does or has not done, what he has chosen or refused to do or say. He was already one of the 50 greatest players before 2001, and he will probably go down as THE greatest baseball player (until A-Rod comes and beats every record known). I sound as if I am aggrandizing him, but then again, everyone else vilifies him. At least one person has to stand up for the man. But then again, the guy thrives on being disliked and booed. So do it some more; it'll push him even harder.
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Old 31-07-2007, 04:00 AM   Senior Registered Member #10
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Meh, he'll break the record, but more people will remember Hank Aaron's run then Bonds' run.
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Old 31-07-2007, 04:41 AM   Senior Registered Member #11
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Bonds is a great player. It's really too bad that this guy is getting so much shit when he should really be praised. He's one of the best hitters, good on the field for defense and he's looked up to by his fellow players (co-workers?)

Steriods don't make you have incredible skill. It really is a shame to see this controversy around this record and this player. And as my boss (who bleeds SF Giants blood) says "it's so hypocritical how the fans boo the player up and down the field, but when he's at bat you see nothing but camera flashes."



And, like Steben, I can't wait to see A-Rod beat record. And hopefully in an Angels shirt. Not becase I like the Angels (I like the Mets) but because I dislike the Yankees. And not because I like A-Rod as a player...but I'd like to see him take the record because I have one of his rookie cards
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Old 31-07-2007, 09:27 AM   Officer #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frodo1511 View Post
Meh, he'll break the record, but more people will remember Hank Aaron's run then Bonds' run.
Well, people remembered Babe Ruth's record until Aaron broke it. So I think Bonds will be remembered more rather than Aaron. In the long run. I mean, Aaron will be no. 2 on the list. And EVERYONE will talk about no. 1. NO ONE talks about no. 2. They might remember Aaron's run, the same way that people remember Maris' run or McGwire's run or Bonds' run at the single-season home run record.

But one must also remember, as others have already stated, Bonds was (and is) a more complete baseball than Aaron ever was. A five-tool player, a 40/40 man, multiple batting titles, MVP's, and Gold Gloves. Aaron's known as one of the more gentlemanly players of the game, but he was never a five-tool player, never a 40/40 man, and has not won as many individual awards as Bonds has. So in that sense, Aaron will be remember for beating Ruth. But Bonds will be remembered as one of the greatest players in the game, AND for beating Aaron.

And no, I would hate to see A-Rod win anything in an Angels uniform. I'll congratulate him on an individual job well done, but the Angels... the Angels...? (I won't vilify A-Rod himself, but I might just vilify him for being a Los Angeles Angel of Los Angeles. Oh, I'm sorry, of Anaheim...which is in Orange County, and not in L.A. County...) Not the most storied franchise in the history of baseball, either. (Bright, bright red and white thundersticks... reminds me of 2002, and five outs away from a World Series ring... so sue me, I'm bitter about it still.)
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Old 31-07-2007, 11:44 AM   KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonRat View Post
As a native San Franciscan and a Giants fan, I tend to disagree with people who despise Barry Bonds and his quest for the home run title. Seriously, you cannot say that he cheated. He's never tested positive for steroids. He said that he did not know what he was taking.
His head grew three sizes, thats pretty good evidence for me. Heres a pic of both Barry's

This transformation happened in his late 30's, That not normal
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File Type: jpg bonds3.JPG (10.1 KB, 32 views)
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Old 31-07-2007, 02:54 PM   Senior Registered Member #14
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/\Agreed. Look at Tiger Woods. Back in 1997, he was a scrawny, albeit highly talented golfer. Fast-forward 10 years, and he's built Ford tough, wearing Spider-Man shirts and has some mean pythons for arms. Still wears the same hats, though the logos change for Nike, the Sumo driver, etc. He's bulked up without using the juice, keeping the game of golf clean in the process.

Barry Bonds has also grown rather exponentially from the past ten years, though more concentrated around his belly. I'd let that slide, but not the size of his head. Your head, as far as I can tell, does not grow nearly as fast as the rest of your body, and in Bonds' case, it's grown a complete full size in the span of, what, 3 years? Preposterous.
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Old 31-07-2007, 05:30 PM   Senior Registered Member #15
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Do you guys actually have head measurments? Or are you just going off pictures from the internet?
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Old 31-07-2007, 05:40 PM   First Class Member KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #16
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Do you guys actually have head measurments? Or are you just going off pictures from the internet?
Randy has an extensive database of the head measurements of approximately 4.2 billion people. It's a hobby of his.
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Old 31-07-2007, 07:02 PM   Officer #17
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But the point of contention is not whether Barry Bonds used steroids. (And again, he's tested multiple times, and EVERY time it has come out negative. If that is not scientific proof--and in today's world, scientific proof is everything--why must you go then by your own understanding? You judge, even when the measured facts are there, because you see with your eyes--and don't perceive with your mind [to quote the Gorillaz].) The question is rather, does he deserve the accolades that will be given him in the end? And, besides all the hoopla and slander, deep down, everyone must surely admit that he is a great player. (And on top of that, one must admit that he does have a big head, in more than one way. But that's him. Ty Cobb was a racist, but we don't talk about him. Babe Ruth was a womanizer and a heavy drinker, but everywhere he is celebrated as one of the greatest overall people in the history of baseball. You cannot expect every great player--and especially the best ones--to be angels.) You can cite as many pictures and measurements as you wish; but you cannot deny his abilities. I mean, he's still fairly worthy of the HOF even before 2001.

So really, get over the fact that he has had a string of crazy seasons. (Because in the scheme of things, doesn't he more or less deserve this, after the close calls in Pittsburgh against the Braves, and after the close call in 2002?) Because he's going to retire in a year or two. And he's had an awesome career. And as I've said, the more people bad-mouth him (even if it were true), it fuels him to perform at an even greater level. The more people raise doubts about him, the more he demands of himself to prove them wrong, and make them eat their words. It's his M.O. (I mean, if you see him in interviews, he is as honest a human being as you can get--honest, as in he will speak his mind, and not be afraid of those who disbelieve him. And the media finds that disconcerting; he wears no mask, even when he speaks to the media. What you see, is really what you get. He won't suck up to anyone, and he won't simply walk around things. If he's had a bad game, then he won't blame anyone else but himself. If he's had a good game, you'll see him jumping up for joy in left field. All that he has cared about for his entire career, is a World Series ring. Screw the records; he wants a ring--so badly, one can say that it haunts his dreams. And if something that unique haunts him like that, what can you say about him? The man has passion; he has desire; and if he felt that he needed to sacrifice himself for that purpose, to that purpose, then at least he tried, and he came up short. But a man's life cannot be judged merely on a small--but definitely integral--part of his life. And will you continue to vilify him? (One day, people will notice that this whole area of steroids in sports is a very, very vague and grey line. And the whole field of "performance-enhancing drugs" is a kind of misnomer. For the believer, even water is a performance-enhancing drug. So I think we should take away the right for players to drink water. I mean, it makes them better, doesn't it?)

(Again, I say that I do not condone the use of steroids or so-called "performance-enhancing drugs". I merely believe that people vilify this one man, even though there were so many out there at the time doing it. Why Bonds? I think Jose Canseco is a more despised human being than Bonds is, but it is really because Bonds is going to break Hank Aaron's record, and not have a home run plunk off his head.)
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Old 31-07-2007, 07:47 PM   First Class Member #18
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You dont get big muscles just by taking steroids
They enhance your ability to grow just like protein
powders, carb drinks, proper sleep, etc. (Not condoning
steroids here, they do have very bad consequences like
brain tumors). The huge growth is mainly thru working
out , working out , and working out. Bonds had to put
forth a ton of effort to get the additional muscle he has
acquired. Steroids help some but they didn't make it easy.
Athletes thru science have learned many ways to get
a better performance and steroids is only one way to get
an edge. I would much prefer to watch an American football
game by teams today than one between teams before weight
lifting became a big part of the performance edge. Today's
athletes are just better as a whole than those of previous
generations because of all those discovered "edge ups".
We think of guys like Babe Ruth as not having had an edge,
but there probably were some things he did beyond
his natural ability that his predecessors had not done in
his training regimen (I'm not talking about his celebrated
non training activities).

Last edited by DanMan; 31-07-2007 at 07:50 PM. Reason: aaaack! and English IS my primary language
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Old 31-07-2007, 08:00 PM   First Class Member KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanMan View Post
You dont get big muscles just by taking steroids
They enhance your ability to grow just like protein
powders, carb drinks, proper sleep, etc. (Not condoning
steroids here, they do have very bad consequences like
brain tumors). The huge growth is mainly thru working
out , working out , and working out. Bonds had to put
forth a ton of effort to get the additional muscle he has
acquired. Steroids help some but they didn't make it easy.
Athletes thru science have learned many ways to get
a better performance and steroids is only one way to get
an edge. I would much prefer to watch an American football
game by teams today than one between teams before weight
lifting became a big part of the performance edge. Today's
athletes are just better as a whole than those of previous
generations because of all those discovered "edge ups".
We think of guys like Babe Ruth as not having had an edge,
but there probably were some things he did beyond
his natural ability that his predecessors had not done in
his training regimen (I'm not talking about his celebrated
non training activities).
Sex is wonderful cardio.
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Old 08-08-2007, 05:03 AM   Senior Registered Member #20
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Good shit, Barry! Congrats! (he frequents this forum, right?)


I'm so glad I was watching the game when it happened.
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