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Old 20-07-2004, 06:28 PM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Administrator #1
barrington
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Question Abortion - Right Or Wrong?

I had a lengthy pub discussion about this topic a few weeks back and thought i'd bring it to the boards as I haven't seen it discussed here yet.

By definition an abortion is the termination of a human foetus' life before it reaches maturity and is born a human baby.

Many people argue that it is wrong to terminate life, no matter how undeveloped. It is argued that unborn babies still have feelings in the same manner that the rest of us do. The defining moment of progression between fertilised ovum and sentient, environmentally-responsive human being obviously does not ocur at the instant of birth, but at some point before.


Consider a pregnancy aborted simply because the mother didn't want a baby. Not because the baby was malformed or crippled. Just because she didn't want to have it.

Now consider the apparent logic that it is fundementally wrong and unjust to end the life of what is essentially a human being without good cause... the foetus still feels, it is still being killed without reason.

End of argument so it would seem. Abortion is wrong and murderous.

But I ask you... do you remember being in the womb? Do you recall being self-aware or feeling before you were born... or even before you first, second, maybe third birthday? Unlikely, some may argue impossible.

The important combination of rationale and sentience is what differentiates our species from animals.

It is perfectly acceptable to control the development and birth of animals we keep as pets in our homes, yet apparently unjust to terminate the life of an unborn baby for whom rationale and sentience have no yet developed in its premature brain... something more closely resembling an animal than a human.

As for me, I don't have an ethical issue with the notion of terminating pregnancies. After all, a homo-sapien entity is not a qualified human until it gains those two qualities of sentience and rationale. Something that babies have none of until many weeks (months?) after birth...

The debate, I throw to the floor...
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:31 PM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #2
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I think so called 'social abortions' should be permisable until there is brain activity in the foetus. Past this there must be valid medical reasons for the abortion to proceed. It's not alive until it's thinking.
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:36 PM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #3
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Deep, very deep.

My opinion is that more of ignorance than any deep feelings. On subjects like this I prefer usually to ignore the facts of the matter as they don't really affect me, or th epeople in my life.

If I was to give an answer on this topic I would probably say it depends entirely on the circumstances. But then again I would find it difficult to draw a boundary line between right and wrong.

Those who are strictly against it in all circumstances are wrong I feel, the human life is a very precious and special thing. People, whoever taint this idea and don't extend it to all forms of life. We may be the dominant species and most intelligent on the planet, but I dont thinkthat necessarily gives us the right to dictate matters. Why should abortion be wrong if they eat meat? In effect killing a calf for beef is more wrong than killing a foetus because that calf has been born and is well aware of it surroundings, unlike unborn children.

That said I dont mind killing animals to eat personally, just an example
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:38 PM   First Class Member Officer #4
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I have mixed feelings on the subject.

I think abortion is wrong if a woman is just using it as a lazy form of contraception over and over again. For that it is just pathetic.

Now, if a woman gets pregnant and the baby is found to have some disease which will affect the child's life in really awful ways, then I think abortion is fine. It's up to the mother (and father)

I also agree with abortion if the mother cannot look after the baby, or is very very poor. Before anyone shouts ''adoption!'' let me stop you. If may seem simple enough, but mothers' end up bonding with their babies and then realise they can't let them go, which means they fall even further into poverty.

I also agree with abortion if the baby was a result of rape. I mean, sure, the baby didn't ask to be created, but I don't think any woman should have to go through with that.

Personally, if I became pregnant, through any means, I don't think I could have an abortion. I wouldn't be able to go through with it.
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:43 PM   #5
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Some argue that as long as it's alive, it's a human (rational or not). Catholicism will tell you that it was God's plan, and it's not up to us to terminate a life.
It's funny that you should bring that up cause I have a friend who is pregnant, and she's planning to have it. Fact: she had an abortion last year.
My thoughts on abortion: I don't like it, I would try to avoid it, but I won't discard it.
Given that I've never been in this position, I haven't made up my mind completely.
I'll get techinal now, this is something I read: ''Every month a woman's body produces an egg which has the potential to become a human being. Every month that this egg is produced and not fertilized, it dies''
This makes us believe that abstinence is sort of like murder, but when you think about it, the egg itself is not life.
Since the foetus is alive, abortion can be considered as murder.
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Old 20-07-2004, 06:47 PM   First Class Member Officer #6
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Aren't all religions against abortion? I know that an early christian documents states ''Tho shall not destroy the fruit of the womb''. (I put that in my R.E GCSE exam last year)

But still, like someone has said, I think it should depend on the circumstances.
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Old 20-07-2004, 07:40 PM   Senior Registered Member #7
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if the mother has no interest in going through with the pregnancy or caring for the baby once its born, why should it be brought into the world? it'll be an unloved child.
yes, you could give it up for adoption, but how pleasant to you think those kind of homes are for children?

if there is a disease in the mother or has already been detected in the child, it should be allowed.
also, if the child is the result of a rape, it should absolutely be allowed.

i'm for the woman's right to chose regarding abortions as long as it's not within the last 2 months or so of pregnancy. then it's getting a bit too late to decide to give up.
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Old 20-07-2004, 07:44 PM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan
yes, you could give it up for adoption, but how pleasant to you think those kind of homes are for children?
That's a rather blinkered view. An adoptive family are just as likely to be a good family as a 'bad' family, but nothing governs who cant have a baby if the parents are fertile? People who are going to be bad parents arent more likely to be infertile
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:07 PM   First Class Member Officer #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryan
i'm for the woman's right to chose regarding abortions as long as it's not within the last 2 months or so of pregnancy. then it's getting a bit too late to decide to give up.
You can't even have abortions when you're in the last 2 months of pregnancy.

Actually, how many weeks can you go up to within the abortion limit?
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:08 PM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #10
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21 weeks I think, but babies who were premature have survived when born before this point I think
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:09 PM   Officer #11
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I would like to think that women abort their fetuses for good reasons, but instead, there are many who do so, simply to rid themselves of an unwanted child, while still having unprotected sex. As a Christian, I find that rather ignorant and selfish, destroying another life (that after all, is in one's charge), yet discarding it without a care or whim.

However, as I see it politically, I am pro-choice. The woman ultimately has the right to do what she wishes with her child. Hopefully, I hope that the woman would make the right decision, but I am not in a position to judge her in any way, shape, or form. Of course, in certain extreme circumstances (such as rape or incest), abortion is permissible. (I think, in some more liberal sects of the Catholic church, they do allow abortion strictly on those terms.)
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:17 PM   First Class Member Officer #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apoggy
21 weeks I think, but babies who were premature have survived when born before this point I think
21 weeks? My goodness, I thought it was less then that. But you are right. Thats like 5 months into the pregnacy! I've known babies born at about 5 months and lived to tell the tale (well, they can't tell it, but their parents can)

Did everyone see those pictures recently of babies at 18 weeks in the womb I think it was. They had their heads, arms, legs and so forth. Still, very tiny but you could make it out. I think those kind of pictures will deter women from having abortions. This could be good and bad, as some people could bully women into keeping the baby.
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:18 PM   Senior Registered Member #13
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Abortion is wrong.

I don't care if the person was raped, you murder the baby and then you're hurting two lives instead of one. Put it up for adoption or something, but don't vacuum it out of the mother in bloody chunks. What kind of bastard would promote that?
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:22 PM   Officer #14
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But if the baby is unwanted, why would the mother go through another 9 months of carrying something that she does not want? Seems like a waste of three trimesters, all to give it up. If the mother is a 15 or 16-year-old, and a victim of rape or incest, you may not be in a position to understand why she would want to do such a thing, but I think it is a good reason to do so.

As for the time period when a fetus could be aborted, I'd say no more than the first trimester. I've read reports on the second and third trimester abortions, and how they are done, and it is none too pretty.
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Old 20-07-2004, 08:32 PM   Senior Registered Member #15
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I think abortion is disgusting and barbaric. It has nothing to do with the child's actual recollection of pregnancy or early childhood. Even in the first trimester it is a living human being. Just because it is dependant on its mother to live doesn't make it any less alive. In the first trimester it senses stimui to the womb like light and heat. It's not a blob of tissue its a human. America is one of the wealthiest and most advanced countries in the world and we find it acceptable to kill the weakest members of our society. Its disgusting.
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Old 20-07-2004, 09:03 PM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #16
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Wealthiest, and most advanced due to extreme capitalism. Unfortunately foetuses don't contribute money to developing the society.
Some arguments are that why subject unborn babies to a future terrible quality of life? Surely it would be better off not going through it?
Then the counter for that is at least if they go through the adoption/fostering system they have the chance to improve.

I am unbiased in this issue. Just making observations.
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Old 20-07-2004, 09:08 PM   Senior Registered Member #17
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Yeah I dont buy the save it from terrible life. When so many couples want children, giving it up for adoption after birth is a plausible option. You cant use abortion as a savior for kids living in ghettos. It doesnt work that way.
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Old 20-07-2004, 09:15 PM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gracie
Yeah I dont buy the save it from terrible life. When so many couples want children, giving it up for adoption after birth is a plausible option. You cant use abortion as a savior for kids living in ghettos. It doesnt work that way.
Very true, considering there are places far worse to live in than the ghetto anyway. Like draught and aids ridden Somalia.
However people who have a fairly comfortable lifestyle are overly compassionate about those who are less fortunate than them. And that extends to unborn babies. Poorer countries don't have easy access to abortion clinics. America does. Convenience factor also goes into it. So does Irresponsibility.
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Old 21-07-2004, 12:48 AM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #19
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First thing...abortion is more or less legal and viable up until the third trimester, but it's not quite as simple as that...but yeah, good rule of thumb is about that...

As for my own views...a few things.

1) Just because something is alive, doesn't mean killing it is murder (See killing chickens)

2) A foetus is not a human being until it is born...this is a FACT. This is because it hasn't developed all of the functions it needs to develop in order to be classed as a human being. It's a life, yes, but it's a living FOETUS, not a living PERSON.

3) Thus abortion is totally justified...whatever the reasons...you're killing a thing...something that's not quite a human life yet. I don't really give a rat's arse for blind catholics (and other anti-choice groups) and their idiotic views, but it's not a human life, thus it's not murder. It COULD be a sin against "God's plan" if you believe in a God, but then, surely that belief is individual choice?!

And no, the foetus in my view has no rights...it's not a human...it's sub-human (like me ) and thus has no right to life (note again how we kill animals for food)...thank you and goodnight.
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Old 21-07-2004, 03:04 AM   Officer #20
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Would we count animals as potentially becoming human beings, though? Part of what makes fetuses as human life is their potential to become human beings, and thus is their killing considered murderous.

Also, according to Christian belief, life begins not at birth, but at conception. So once the sperm cell penetrates and fertilizes the egg cell, a life is created. Of course, that might necessarily conflict with modern biological teaching, but it's science vs. religion.
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