Bush: Hate Him or Love Him (split from UK terror thread)

[Ranman]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

that may be true, but that isn't for ever.

What does that mean?

[Keira lover]

Originally Posted by Ranman

What does that mean?

interest rates change.

[DragonRat]

It's no use. The whole point in having a debate is such that people's views can perhaps change slightly--much like interest rates. If none of us actually agree on anything that arose that may sound even slightly logical or plausible, then there's no point in going ad hominem on people. It's just a different way of looking at things in the world--albeit misguided (in my opinion), but still valid to one perspective.

And the United States was built as a land of immigrants--foreigners to which the U.S. government extended constitutional rights. I think you should work on your history. Patriotism gets way out of hand, when you stop thinking like the descendant of European immigrants, and start acting like a pompous, holier-than-thou American citizen (with limitations on the epistemology of one's actual sociopolitical roots).

Basically, one should stop making assumptions about the feelings or states of terrorists in the world--unless you are one of them. I seriously doubt that our sending troops over to Iraq have actually demoralized the terrorists: I'm sure they had no idea how much we would retaliate, but to see us mired in a war that we have no way of getting out of, probably brings a smirk to Osama's face. And we haven't even captured bin Laden yet. We've deposed Saddam Hussein--but then again, we should've done that years ago.

Anyway, I'm gonna finish up, because this thread is too bogus, and too ludicrous. There's one conservative, and the rest of us are this close to bumping you off because of your ignorance and inability to actually change your views. (And well, we're not going to change ours either, so we're at an impasse. I'd rather think, though, that most of us see both sides of the issue, and like Trainspotting, we choose life.) We were attacked. I get that. So we fought back. And we're still fighting back. And they're not doing anything. So that means that we're stopping them? They're not even in Iraq--at least, not the top ones. We're displacing a lot of frustration on a country that didn't really have much to do with terrorism. So why are we there? So they don't attack us back? That sounds like a defense mechanism to me...

[AureaMediocritas]

I am also done posting. Just one last thing.

Originally Posted by Keira lover

Abu Graihb? i really don't care. It is war.

These being the words of someone living under a totalitarian form of state ?
Auschwitz ? I really don´t care. It is war.
Terrorizing statement.

[Keira lover]

Originally Posted by DragonRat

It's no use. The whole point in having a debate is such that people's views can perhaps change slightly--much like interest rates. If none of us actually agree on anything that arose that may sound even slightly logical or plausible, then there's no point in going ad hominem on people. It's just a different way of looking at things in the world--albeit misguided (in my opinion), but still valid to one perspective.

And the United States was built as a land of immigrants--foreigners to which the U.S. government extended constitutional rights. I think you should work on your history. Patriotism gets way out of hand, when you stop thinking like the descendant of European immigrants, and start acting like a pompous, holier-than-thou American citizen (with limitations on the epistemology of one's actual sociopolitical roots).

Basically, one should stop making assumptions about the feelings or states of terrorists in the world--unless you are one of them. I seriously doubt that our sending troops over to Iraq have actually demoralized the terrorists: I'm sure they had no idea how much we would retaliate, but to see us mired in a war that we have no way of getting out of, probably brings a smirk to Osama's face. And we haven't even captured bin Laden yet. We've deposed Saddam Hussein--but then again, we should've done that years ago.

Anyway, I'm gonna finish up, because this thread is too bogus, and too ludicrous. There's one conservative, and the rest of us are this close to bumping you off because of your ignorance and inability to actually change your views. (And well, we're not going to change ours either, so we're at an impasse. I'd rather think, though, that most of us see both sides of the issue, and like Trainspotting, we choose life.) We were attacked. I get that. So we fought back. And we're still fighting back. And they're not doing anything. So that means that we're stopping them? They're not even in Iraq--at least, not the top ones. We're displacing a lot of frustration on a country that didn't really have much to do with terrorism. So why are we there? So they don't attack us back? That sounds like a defense mechanism to me...

well, those European immigrants kne one very inportant thing: don't let people in who won't to blow us up. and had we not gone in, we would have been attacked, again.

Originally Posted by AureaMediocritas

I am also done posting. Just one last thing.



These being the words of someone living under a totalitarian form of state ?
Auschwitz ? I really don´t care. It is war.
Terrorizing statement.

Um, Auschwitz: genocide

Abu Graihb: taken off the battlefield. they tried to kill our boys.

[Leonie]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

well, those European immigrants kne one very inportant thing: don't let people in who won't to blow us up. and had we not gone in, we would have been attacked, again.




Um, Auschwitz: genocide

Abu Graihb: taken off the battlefield. they tried to kill our boys.

1. Are you familiar with the American Civil War? It was an argument like this one, only really big, and the result of it was your country. And there was blowing up and killing, too.

2. Any SS-er could have said the same thing about my family. "Taken off the battlefield. They tried to kill our boys." I'd like to remind you that people in Abu Graihb weren't necessarily taken off any actual physical battlefield.

Surely you are not this blind.

[Foeni]

Abu Ghraib had lots of innocent people being tortured and humiliated. The way you defend anything labelled 'War on terror' is riddicolous. I support the fight, but we need to know where to draw line. Remember, if we really are better than them, we shouldn't lower ourself to their ways and start killing civilians.

I'm often accused of seeing things black/white, but damn boy, you're much worse. 'They' are pure evil, the US is pure good, eh?

[Ranman]

We in the USA are your leader's in this world. You must obey us and worship us. We know whats good for you. We are always right. I dare any of you to name a mistake we have made.

[Keira lover]

Originally Posted by Leonie

1. Are you familiar with the American Civil War? It was an argument like this one, only really big, and the result of it was your country. And there was blowing up and killing, too.

2. Any SS-er could have said the same thing about my family. "Taken off the battlefield. They tried to kill our boys." I'd like to remind you that people in Abu Graihb weren't necessarily taken off any actual physical battlefield.

Surely you are not this blind.

the American Civil War? The South succeeded. Lincoln, who felt it was his duty to preserve the union, also suspended the writ of habeaus corpus, freedom of speech, and threw the most vocal opponents of the war in jail. It was war.


The SS were not the type to talk. And, I am tired of saying this. 3,000 American citizens were murdered. We mobilized our military to bring those who attacked us were they deserve and to show them the same mercy as they showed to us. Those in Abu Graihb had taken arms against us. They were our enemies. They were in line with those who murdered our citizens .Look, i think Abu Graihb was wrong. Those responsible are being dealt with. They have been court marshaled and will serve time. But their crimes pale in comparison to what those in Abu Graihb, in Gitmo, and the 9/11 hijackers did.

"I'm sorry, those pictures from the Abu Ghraib. At first, they, like infuriated me, I was sad. Then like, a couple days later, after they cut the guys [Nicholas Berg] head off, they didn't seem like much."

Dennis Miller (yeah he's a comedian, but it us a good quote)

I'm often accused of seeing things black/white, but damn boy, you're much worse. 'They' are pure evil, the US is pure good, eh?
__________________

And no, i never said that!!!! The US has a lot of problems, but we don't hijack planes filled
with innocent civilians and fly them into buildings, leading to them falling, crushing all inside, and also into the Pentagon.

We in the USA are your leader's in this world. You must obey us and worship us. We know whats good for you. We are always right. I dare any of you to name a mistake we have made.

And I never said that, either, nor do i believe that.

[Leonie]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

the American Civil War? The South succeeded. Lincoln, who felt it was his duty to preserve the union, also suspended the writ of habeaus corpus, freedom of speech, and threw the most vocal opponents of the war in jail. It was war.

I was merely pointing out that your statement, namely that the US are clever enough not to let people in who will blow them up, was wrong, and has been wrong for a very, very long time. After all, you were a country of immigrants at the time. And some of those definitely blew a couple of other ones right up.

And I'm not saying the US army are like the SS, I'm saying that just cause you can say they were killing your people doesn't make you right in your conduct.

Winning a war by turning into your enemy still means you lose, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Keira lover

The SS were not the type to talk. And, I am tired of saying this. 3,000 American citizens were murdered. We mobilized our military to bring those who attacked us were they deserve and to show them the same mercy as they showed to us.

Praytell, what did the Iraqis ever do to you?

Don't start quoting numbers on me. I live in a place where, on a random walk, you could find signs saying "five men were shot here by the Nazis on such and such date." You are not the first to lose people, and you are unlikely to be the last. 9/11 was unbelievably tragic, but don't use your numbers like no innocent people have died before. At least you still have your country. You don't get a carte blanche to nuke whichever country you like because innocent people died.

[Juliamariskamadadh]

Gangs of New York Teehee! I personally don't like politics! For this very reason..

[Keira lover]

Originally Posted by Leonie

I was merely pointing out that your statement, namely that the US are clever enough not to let people in who will blow them up, was wrong, and has been wrong for a very, very long time. After all, you were a country of immigrants at the time. And some of those definitely blew a couple of other ones right up.

And I'm not saying the US army are like the SS, I'm saying that just cause you can say they were killing your people doesn't make you right in your conduct.

Winning a war by turning into your enemy still means you lose, in my opinion.



Praytell, what did the Iraqis ever do to you?

Don't start quoting numbers on me. I live in a place where, on a random walk, you could find signs saying "five men were shot here by the Nazis on such and such date." You are not the first to lose people, and you are unlikely to be the last. 9/11 was unbelievably tragic, but don't use your numbers like no innocent people have died before. At least you still have your country. You don't get a carte blanche to nuke whichever country you like because innocent people died.

all i have been trying to say is we can not give up; we can not pull out.

[Ranman]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

all i have been trying to say is we can not give up; we can not pull out.

PPPFFFTTTTTT.....

[Pygmalion]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

all i have been trying to say is we can not give up; we can not pull out.

Do you mean you won't pull out till there's no oil left? I suppose after spending billions of taxpayer dollars invading the place, there's no point leaving before draining of all its resources.


I read something on a toilet wall at uni which said:
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, war is the terrorism of the rich."
Or something like that anyway.

[Digital_Ice]

Originally Posted by Pygmalion

I read something on a toilet wall at uni which said:
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, war is the terrorism of the rich."
Or something like that anyway.

That reminds me of
"A terrorist is a freedom-fighter who attacks you, a freedom-fighter is a terrorist who attacks someone else"

[Keira lover]

Originally Posted by Pygmalion

Do you mean you won't pull out till there's no oil left? I suppose after spending billions of taxpayer dollars invading the place, there's no point leaving before draining of all its resources.


I read something on a toilet wall at uni which said:
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, war is the terrorism of the rich."
Or something like that anyway.

no, and do you mean to tell me that you are of the breed thet believes this war was about oil. News Flash: We got oil cheaper before the war. If this was about cheap oil, we would have never gone in.

Yes, the taxes are high on oil, but not high enough to raise it as high as it is.

Supply and Demand. read up on it




PPPFFFTTTTTT.....

what the hell?

[Pygmalion]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

PPPFFFTTTTTT.....

what the hell?

I'm pretty sure Ran's expressing his distain at what you said.

[Ranman]

Originally Posted by Pygmalion

I'm pretty sure Ran's expressing his distain at what you said.

If I could pee on him I would

[Pygmalion]

Originally Posted by Ranman

If I could pee on him I would

I'd pee on his sanctimonious drivel about how the US is the greatest thing to happen to the world, it reminds me of the kind of Nationalism Hitler was into.

[Leonie]

Originally Posted by Keira lover

no, and do you mean to tell me that you are of the breed thet believes this war was about oil. News Flash: We got oil cheaper before the war. If this was about cheap oil, we would have never gone in.

Yes, the taxes are high on oil, but not high enough to raise it as high as it is.

Supply and Demand. read up on it




PPPFFFTTTTTT.....

what the hell?

John Howard, one of your allies, actually admitted that oil was a big part of the decision to go to Iraq. So there.