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Old 30-11-2004, 08:59 AM   #1
Nick
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Creationists versus Darwinists

Okay here we go, the ultimate religion versus science thread. There seem to have been several threads that were controversial and ultimately led to a debate between creationists and Darwinists(Evolutionists) including my own "Are we alone?" thread. So what I've decided to do is create a thread that is solely to debate religion and science. So have at it.
Oh and by the way just to get this out of the way now because I know it will come up, if you're a creationist don't try using the argument that Darwin himself admitted his theories were wrong because it's not true. Darwin believed his theory on evolution to be correct until the day he died. The reason this rumor started is because Darwin did admit his theory was mostly conjecture, but he was in no way saying his theory was wrong. Some people just simply misunderstood what he said.
Anyway to get things started let's talk about evolution versus creation. However let's not jump right into the way the universe was created because that will never go anywhere. Instead let's talk about something more specific, the creation of mankind. Was man created by God or chance? Whatever your beliefs are don't just say "I believe in evolution" or "I believe in the creation story of the Bible," try elaborating. I want to know why you believe what you believe.
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Old 30-11-2004, 06:00 PM   Senior Registered Member #2
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i think bill hicks said it best - if god created the world in 7 days, where did dinosaurs come from? because of course in the bible it says "and jesus and his disciplies walked to galile (sp?) and came across a giant lizard, and lo the disciples did go a running and a screaming!!"

is god f*cking with creationalists???

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Old 30-11-2004, 06:28 PM   #3
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Life came to Earth from somewhere else--period. It came to Earth whole and complete, in large volume, and in two forms that were invulnerable to the most hostile environments imaginable. Given those proven, undeniable realities, it is time to make the frightening mental leap that few if any scientists or theologians have been willing or able to make: Life was seeded here! There ... it's on the table ... life was seeded here.... The Earth hasn't split open. Lightening bolts have not rained down. Time marches on. It seems safe to discuss the idea further.

If life was actually seeded here, how might that have happened? By accident....or (hushed whisper) deliberately? Well, the idea of accidental seeding has been explored in considerable detail by a surprising number of non-mainstream thinkers and even by a few credentialed scientists (British astronomer Fred Hoyle being perhaps the most notable). The "accidental seeding" theory is called panspermia, and the idea behind it is that bacterial life came to Earth on comets or asteroids arriving from planets where it had existed before they exploded and sent pieces hurtling through space to collide some millennia later with our just-forming planet.

A variation of this theory is called directed panspermia, which replaces comets and asteroids with capsules launched by alien civilizations to traverse space for millennia and deliberately home in on our just-forming planet. However, the idea of conscious direction from any source beyond the confines of Earth is as abhorrent to science as ever, so directed panspermia has received little better than polite derision from the establishment. But for as blatantly as undirected panspermia defies the scientific tenet that all of life begins and ends within the confines of Earth, it is marginally acceptable as an alternative possibility. There have even been serious, ongoing attempts to try to determine if the raw materials for life might be found in comets.

The point to note here is that no one wants to step up to the plate and suggest the obvious, which is that some entity or entities from somewhere beyond our solar system came here when it was barely formed and for whatever reason decided to seed it with two kinds of prokaryotes, the hardiest forms of bacteria we are aware of and, for all we know, are creatures purposefully designed to be capable of flourishing in absolutely any environment in the universe. (Understand that prokaryotes exist today just as they did 4.0 billion years ago ... unchanged, indestructible, microscopic terminators with the unique ability to turn any hell into a heaven.

If we take the suggested leap and accept the notion of directed-at-the-scene panspermia, we are then confronted with a plethora of follow-up questions. Were all of the planets seeded, or just Earth? Why Earth? Why when it was a seething cauldron? Why not a couple billion years later, when it was cooled off? Good questions all, and many more like them can be construed. But they all lead away from the fundamental issue of why anyone or (to be fair) anything would want to bring life here in the first place, whether to the proto-Earth or to any other protoplanet? And this brings us to the kicker, a question few of us are comfortable contemplating: Is Earth being deliberately terraformed?
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Old 30-11-2004, 10:17 PM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #4
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I agree with Pete... According to the Bible, all animals were created from day 4 and 5, and then man was created. Now it was Adam's job to name all the animals. But science has already proven this impossible. He couldn't in any way have done that, since dinosaurs are way too old to be named by a man. He was 'created' yet. So I believe in evolution. Science has also proven that living creatures DO evolve. No one has ever proven that it happened the way the Bible tells i happened. The second someone proves that it just as well could have happened, I will reconsider my statement: Man was created by evolution.
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Old 30-11-2004, 10:40 PM   #5
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i'm about as religious as i am white.

for that reason, the bible is the greatest narrative ever sold. that's not to say that it doesn't portray great moral values, i just think that taking it for fact is ridiculous. the old testament was a fear tactic, the new testament was a bit less aggressive (though no less accusing). essentially it's been the greatest tool for molding society on.

i believe in darwin's theory of evolution to a certain extent. remembering that it's a theory and that it's not fully realised or understood. i reckon it'll take some time before we gain a better understanding of it.

and about living creatures evolving - dead things can't really evolve. so yeah, you're right. but the main problem with society's view of evolution is that they've got the wrong idea. darwin's theory has been misconstrued to the point where people declared that man was a direct descendent of ape, which is untrue. there's also the problem with claiming that evolution is at work when really it's natural selection. like the whole industrial revolution & moths issue. but i'm getting off topic.

and the alien conspiracy theories... well i'm not going to pretend that i find them plausible. but we know so little. what's scary is that there's probably more 'evidence' of alien activity than there is of jesus christ.
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Old 01-12-2004, 04:56 AM   #6
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Well damn so far we haven't had any creationist Bible thumpers view the thread yet. That's a shame because I love arguing with religious zealots because they can never come up with any facts. They always just keep going back to the Bible and quote scripture which means absolutely nothing to me (atleast not anymore) because nothing in the Bible has been proven. I do agree with Bob though, the Bible does have some good moral lessons and that sort of thing but the fact remains that nothing in the Bible has been revealed to be factual.
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Old 01-12-2004, 05:14 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
Well but the fact remains that nothing in the Bible has been revealed to be factual.
Has science blinded everyone?

Why does everyone have to see the proof? I'm not saying that you should believe everything, but there are things that have existed and occured that we can't explain yet. Thus we are learning

PLease don't take this offensive the last thing I want to do is start an argument...
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:49 AM   #8
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Quote:
Has science blinded everyone?
Science doesn't blind people IBO, religion does that. Trust me I was raised in a very conservative family and I myself was very religious for a good portion of my life ,what a waste of a childhood that was. In fact it's only been in the last three or four years that I finally began to start asking questions about my religion and so far I have had no one give me any straight answers to my questions. So I figure if these people that have practiced this religion their entire lives can't even answer a few simple questions about their "faith" then there must be something missing. What I've determined through all of this is that "faith" is just another word for gullibility and therefore nothing is truth until there is evidence. Yes I know there are things we still don't understand but that's what science is for, to study things we don't understand and hopefully one day by sudying we will be able to understand. Without modern science our society would still be stuck in the Dark Ages.
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Old 01-12-2004, 08:51 AM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
Well damn so far we haven't had any creationist Bible thumpers view the thread yet. That's a shame because I love arguing with religious zealots because they can never come up with any facts. They always just keep going back to the Bible and quote scripture which means absolutely nothing to me (atleast not anymore) because nothing in the Bible has been proven. I do agree with Bob though, the Bible does have some good moral lessons and that sort of thing but the fact remains that nothing in the Bible has been revealed to be factual.
Well that *may* be because its pointless arguing with someone who is convinced one way or the other. Its why I don't buy into these sort of threads.
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:39 AM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Administrator #10
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These threads are created by scientists with the direct aim of luring religious types into a trap of flaming.
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:43 AM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #11
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Which is fun for a while, but I find it easier to get a laugh watching people trip over.

I resent people trying to force feed me their views. I imagine some others feel the same way and stay out of these threads.
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Old 01-12-2004, 09:56 AM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Administrator #12
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On Evolution vs. Creation:

The former has millions of years of evidence. The latter has faith.
Human nature sees to it that these two factors are on equal footing.
Usefulness of debate ends.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:03 AM   #13
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I'm not trying to force feed my views. I've simply posted my views and the reasons I believe them and no one has yet been able to provide a succesful argument to counter my arguments against religion. All they do is call me a Satanist for not believing the way they do, which I find amusing considering I don't believe in Satan. Anyway I'm simply waiting for someone to provide an intelligent argument to counter mine, if they can come up with some plausible arguments I will gladly consider their points of view. But until then I will continue to verbally bash the major religions of the world.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:12 AM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #14
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You seem like a fairly intelligent chap, but 'verbally bashing' major world religions only lowers you to the level of the uninformed cretin who giggles through religion class at school because it makes them look tough.

I can appreciate both sides of the argument. Faith is a very personal thing though; it can be incredibly strong - so strong that it becomes unfathomable for the 'faith-less'. If you lack the faith, religion will make no sense whatsoever to you.

Nobody can counter your arguments? A person with strong religious views may feel the same way about your arguments. Its a two-sided coin (much like your common, vanilla, garden variety coin, only more suited to arguments).

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is my two cents.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:16 AM   Lifetme Service Award Officer #15
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Hmmm - so you're saying religion doesn't make sense because you've seen nothing to prove it? According to your logic atoms don't exist.

According to modern science, molecules are made of tiny little bits called atoms. Have you ever seen them? No. We've just interpreted stuff, and come to the conclusion that they exist. We haven't *seen* them though. Sure, there hasn't been any proof to counter the atom theory, but wait - didn't we say a similar thing about religion? Why then, should I believe in atoms?
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:17 AM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Administrator #16
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I once thought the same way about these topics. My views have remained the same as I got older, but my approach in dealing with "the opposition" has changed somewhat.

I am a physicist by education and personal belief, devoid of any religious or theistic inklings whatsoever. It is nice to post threads championing the triumphs and successes of science; to revel in it's ability to ever further marginalise god into the annals of human experience. The reason you have not received any argument to counter yours against religion is that you cannot. There are no arguments to strengthen religion over science. Your case has been won before the court was even entered. But people have faith, and that's their own business. Of course many choose to ignore science and instead find solace in the Bible, but that is their own business and it has never impinged on my continuing quest to educate myself scientifically and neither should it for you.

Don't ask the believers for hard evidence of their god, their beliefs or their faith because you will never receive any. Similarly, do not bash their way of life or what they choose to believe. Fundementally, us scientists actually have no evidence that anything we believe is correct either. Great models, but it requires a special kind of faith to believe that the old professor teaching us about quantum mechanics is actually true.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:20 AM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #17
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And thus spake the Lord Barrington, and all was good in the world.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:44 AM   #18
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Ah yes the "you can't see atoms" argument. Well you're right we can't see atoms but we can however see the effects atoms have on the physical world, that is how we know they exist. For instance we know that molecules have to be made up of something and so we decided that there must be even smaller particles than molecules and we named them atoms. Now the question is are there even smaller particles than atoms, this is where it all turns to speculation. Some scientists believe that as the universe is infinitley large so it is also infinitely small, meaning that yes there are smaller particles than atoms and there are particles smaller than those particles etc. Of course like I said it's all speculation, however there is atleast some logic to this theory of an infinite universe where religion has very little logical basis. So I suppose I'm not really asking for hard evidence but rather a logical answer that makes sence and has some sequence to it.

As for the topic of "verbally bashing" religion I never meant for it to be taken so seriously. I was just kidding. Honestly I didn't think people would take it so personaly. If some religious fundamentalist wanted to make jokes about scienctists I wouldn't care as long as it's all in fun, which is what my comment about religion was supposed to be taken as. So try not to let what I said offend you too much, however if you really want me to I suppose I can ease up on the religious jokes a bit.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:48 AM   First Class Member Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Administrator #19
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We're just a bunch of cranky admins who have seen more Science vs. Religion threads than you've had hot dinners.
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Old 01-12-2004, 10:49 AM   Lifetme Service Award Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Retired Administrator #20
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Speak for yourself, I just don't care enough either way to post
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