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Old 05-09-2006, 02:42 PM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #1
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Innocence, Honesty and Morality

I think its time for an intelligent thread.
'The Bush thread involves politics!' I hear you cry, but I'll suggest that the subject isn't intellectually stimulating at all.

Innocence, Honesty, Morality.

I was out yesterday, clubbing with a bunch of friends and some of the way into the night, against all the odds, a semi intelligent conversation sparked up. After which there was a hilarious conversation about bedrooms with windows looking into the living room what tomfoolery could happen while looking into the bedroom from the living room. (There are obviously some blanks here which I won't go into today)
Then I'm told that some people think I'm the most amoral person they know. Of course I acted mock offended, but it got me thinking. What is morality? What I appear to lack? What I do or say to give that impression? Perhaps I was reading too much into it, but there seemed to be an underlying tone of honesty. Anyway at the time there was too much going on, so I pushed any emotions out of my mind and got back to pummelling those seals.

Later on that evening, I'm in the toilet. The black toiletman is hassling me, turning on the tap for me, handing me the soap (not dropping it, its not that kinda joint), spraying cologne everywhere, handing me tissues and kindly opening the bin. For this he expects to be paid. I tell him that I paid him way too much before, and I have barely enough to cover alcohol, but i'd give him some money next time. He says 'Hey you from China, Japan, Korea?' I reply saying that I'm South Korean. He says 'Oh I should have guessed, all Koreans are liars.'
Needless to say I didn't pay before or afterwards, so perhaps he was telling some truths.

At the end of the evening I'm walking my friend home, and we're playfully chatting, and she insists that she's both innocent and honest. I think I replied that she was as pure as orange juice. She agreed (which is a tribute to how drunk she was) Is innocence and honesty a good thing? Can innocence be seperated from naivety and gullibleness (is this a word?) Can you be honest if you're not honest with yourself? Is honesty and innocence subjective? I accepted that she was more honest than most, she said some outlandishly honest (read offensive) things to people during the course of the night; when I teased her on the other, she seemed curiously adamant in maintaining her innocence.

On a completely unrelated (maybe) note, is it right and proper to answer 'I need you to protect me as I'm always afraid that a man is going to jump out of the bushes and alleys and rape me' with: 'I think you should be more afraid of the people who walk you home'

No, I didn't fuck her.
And no, that wasn't because I was knocked out, and woke up in a prison cell.

Moral of the story is: Don't think too much while drunk.
(I don't think I understand this moral thing, which is probably a big part of the problem)

FOCUS:

Discuss the stories above, relate any related (terrible english) funny/serious/interesting stories of your own, and discuss the nature of innocence, honesty and morality in an intellectual way, which I'm sure some of you are capable of.

I think the aim overall is to come up with catchphrases like 'honesty is good when surrounded in a box of tact' or similar. Go.
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Old 05-09-2006, 08:36 PM   #2
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i dont have any of the 3 in the topic so i'm not going to respond...
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Old 05-09-2006, 09:56 PM   #3
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i really like what you said "do you have to be honest with yourself in order to be honest to other people" or something to that extent, i'm too lazy to quote. i think the real question behind all this that we haven't addressed is:

what IS truth? is truth a part of or separate from reality? and in that case is reality a constant or something that we each play a part of and have our own perspective on?

I can't say i strongly believe there is a higher truth or at least some overlying reality... but i can say that we do influence the world's perspective on "truth" and "morality"

I can say this because with every generation there is a new definition of what it is to be "an adult" or even basic principles of aesthetics.

But is there an ideal? How far is too far?

I have some friends that are extremely religious. and i mean religious to the point where it seems more like a cult than anything else. they don't listen to any music, they don't do anything on the Sabbath (they even iron their clothes, cook, etc on friday so they don't have to on saturday), and it seems like they've completely separated from well... "normality" some of them are the most talented musicians i know, but they've given up the drums, guitar, and even some forms of piano. Yes, i believe that music has an influence on who you are and how you feel at a certain tim, but I don't believe that's always a horrible thing. The point is... I think this is taking "morality" and "truth" a bit too far.

okay i'm gunna be quiet now. :icon_wink
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Old 06-09-2006, 01:42 AM   #4
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This is something I constantly find myself skirting around, possibly because I've never had a set opinion on it. Now I'm very much interested in the innocence and naivety thing. In my opinion they can be seperated but rarely. It's hard for someone who's never experienced to understand/comprehend certain things, thus the opinion they have is often naive and skewed by the innocence they contain. But in the end innocence is touchy. What is innocence? What is the true definition and boundaries to innocence? What do you consider to be innocence? Purity or...do you think of innocence as being innocent of illegal activity or another thing.

"'I need you to protect me as I'm always afraid that a man is going to jump out of the bushes and alleys and rape me' with: 'I think you should be more afraid of the people who walk you home'" Most girls think like that...have that fear but when a girl confides that in you she'll most likely fear you and take your reply differently than was intended. I understand your intent in the statement (I think?) Was your meaning that it's not logical to fear something like that and more logical to fear those who have closer contact to you? If so she'll still probably be a little wary.

Many people lump morality with innocence but being moral is so much more than that. To be moral...what is that? To be kind, to have good intentions, to...?
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Old 06-09-2006, 07:03 AM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leah
"'I need you to protect me as I'm always afraid that a man is going to jump out of the bushes and alleys and rape me' with: 'I think you should be more afraid of the people who walk you home'" Most girls think like that...have that fear but when a girl confides that in you she'll most likely fear you and take your reply differently than was intended. I understand your intent in the statement (I think?) Was your meaning that it's not logical to fear something like that and more logical to fear those who have closer contact to you? If so she'll still probably be a little wary.

Many people lump morality with innocence but being moral is so much more than that. To be moral...what is that? To be kind, to have good intentions, to...?
At the time, my comment was entirely a joke, followed by a sinister cackling laugh. Was hilarious at the time, made ok by the fact that she knows me and I know her as people who say and appreciate outlandish things.

Where does honesty fit into humour? Quite often you'll be going on a flight of fancy, exaggerating for comic effect and saying things that can never be true. Could this be considered as dishonest?
If it is, I'm not sure I care much about honesty, as I'm not a great fan of humour that plays out like: 'oh look, he fell over on a banana. Isn't that curiously funny as he's unlucky, we're glad its not us, and we believe that it'll never happen to us?'

Wikipedia says on Morality:
"Morality refers to the concept of human ethics which pertains to matters of good and evil —also referred to as "right or wrong", used within three contexts: individual conscience, systems of principles and judgments — sometimes called moral values —shared within a cultural, religious, secular, Humanist, or philosophical community; and codes of behavior or conduct derived from these systems.

Personal morality defines and distinguishes among right and wrong intentions, motivations or actions, as these have been learned, engendered, or otherwise developed within each individual."

I have a strong concept of whats right and wrong, but its changes often and is tempered greatly by a risk and practicality evaluating personality. In fact, there are few things where I would flat out refuse to do something on principle, there are always risk reasons. As if, when given a chance to do that something, if there were less risk involved I would.

Oh and one more thing: how does exaggeration affect your honesty? Women exaggerate their feelings, frequency and their emotions (and don't you try and deny it) like: 'You ALWAYS ignoring me when your friends are around' or 'When I saw her in the same dress as me, I just died'. In contrast men exaggerate facts and figures. Which is why you get arguments where a guy is reasoning with his girlfriend saying that he doesn't always go to the pub with his friends leaving her all alone, in fact didn't he just take her out shopping and spent millions on her?
Whos lying? Are they lying at all? Which approach is better/worse?
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Old 06-09-2006, 08:23 PM   #6
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Interesting idea, but at which point does exaggeration become lying? And when is either acceptable? In attempt to answer this, so that we don't simply make this thread full of unanswered and completely relative questions, I think that exaggeration becomes lying when it distorts the truth so strongly that it seems to relate something that is alternative, or even opposite, to the original idea. And I think exaggeration is fine, so long as it is used in the right contexts and stays within the limits. As for lying, I don't want to be so closed minded as to say that it is always wrong, or I will have 50 people replying with the 'jews and nazis' example. However, it can cause so much hurt that it cannot always be right. Yet since truth can cause just as much pain, perhaps there is no right answer. So we're no further with that one.

Well, that's honesty covered. Morality is interesting, as it is something that I feel is very important, yet I have several friends who do not agree, so it has made me reassess my own views. I cannot decide, as I think that without it, the world will just continue to spiral into a corrupt existence that has no future. Yet, the world has changed so much that it cannot be expected to simply fall into the moral views that were common just a few decades ago. Probably, some form of compromise is the best solution, but perhaps a cop out.

And finally - innocence. Well, some people argue that either this is simply reserved for children, or a puritan view of naivety, or lack of experience. I have some hope for innocence; it would be nice to think that such a thing exists. And perhaps it does, to those who have managed to lead a relatively sheltered life, and have been marginally nicer than the rest of us. But I doubt, really, that it is something that can be defined. I just hope that it exists.

Anyway, sermon over. And sorry, no intelligent catchphrases!
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Old 06-09-2006, 11:40 PM   Lifetme Service Award Officer #7
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I just wanted to chuck in that as long as the exaggeration is overt, as long as all people taking part in the conversation know it's an exaggeration, it's not lying, to my mind. When I say "I spent aaaages trying to find the right top to go with these jeans," you know that's not literally true, because it can't be. Instead, it conveys how tiring the event felt. Here, the exaggeration is a tool to add to the literal meaning, not hide any of it.
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Old 07-09-2006, 05:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonie
I just wanted to chuck in that as long as the exaggeration is overt, as long as all people taking part in the conversation know it's an exaggeration, it's not lying, to my mind. When I say "I spent aaaages trying to find the right top to go with these jeans," you know that's not literally true, because it can't be. Instead, it conveys how tiring the event felt. Here, the exaggeration is a tool to add to the literal meaning, not hide any of it.
That's true. Usually you can tell when someone's exaggerating, in which case there doesn't seem to be any harm. Good point.
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Old 07-09-2006, 06:24 PM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #9
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That's true. Usually you can tell when someone's exaggerating, in which case there doesn't seem to be any harm. Good point.
Well lies do not have to be hurtful. And surely what you've said suggests that some responsibility lies on the listener. If they cannot tell when someone is exaggerating, would it be a lie as the listener cannot find the truth, having taken the literal meaning of your words?

Honesty = Right, Lying = Wrong. Either telling the truth or telling lies can be used to hurt others, or in their best interests. If you found out that someone lied in order to save your life, you'd consider that ok. Whereas if your friend told the truth to your girlfriend that you're secretly interested in someone else, you'd consider that very bad. Telling the truth is not inherently bad, but breaking a vow of secrecy is. When you're swearing to not tell the truth, is it lying? Or is there a distinct category for witholding information?

I think alot of it comes down to intent. What you choose to do with the knowledge that you have, or you pretend that you have. Now it getting closer to the idea of internal conversation, where you are either being honest with how you feel and think, lying to yourself to make yourself feel better or worse, and the decision process in which you choose to tell the truth or tell a lie.

(forgive the stream of typing, i'm rather tired atm, and i'm writing thoughts as they turn up)
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Old 07-09-2006, 08:49 PM   #10
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Well lies do not have to be hurtful. And surely what you've said suggests that some responsibility lies on the listener. If they cannot tell when someone is exaggerating, would it be a lie as the listener cannot find the truth, having taken the literal meaning of your words?

Honesty = Right, Lying = Wrong. Either telling the truth or telling lies can be used to hurt others, or in their best interests. If you found out that someone lied in order to save your life, you'd consider that ok. Whereas if your friend told the truth to your girlfriend that you're secretly interested in someone else, you'd consider that very bad. Telling the truth is not inherently bad, but breaking a vow of secrecy is. When you're swearing to not tell the truth, is it lying? Or is there a distinct category for witholding information?

I think alot of it comes down to intent. What you choose to do with the knowledge that you have, or you pretend that you have. Now it getting closer to the idea of internal conversation, where you are either being honest with how you feel and think, lying to yourself to make yourself feel better or worse, and the decision process in which you choose to tell the truth or tell a lie.

(forgive the stream of typing, i'm rather tired atm, and i'm writing thoughts as they turn up)
Maybe you're right about the fact that some responsibility is put on the listener to be quite perspicacious if someone is exaggerating. So perhaps this is unfair if the listener does not have this advantage, and it could be considered lying. However, I was only meaning in situations with mild exaggeration between people who are familiar enough with each other to not be misunderstood. For example, in the car with my mother today, I noticed that both of us were mildly exaggerating in just the general conversations that we were having, and we both knew where we stood, and neither of us would have considered it lying. However, I understand that as a rule, this would perhaps not be fair.

However, I disagree about the lying thing. As I originally wrote, I do not think that, as an absolute, lying is wrong, and even if I did, I would be a hypocrite. Everyone lies. I just think that more often than not, lying will lead to hurt if discovered. If not discovered, then perhaps it could seem successful, but if someone lied to me and I found out, depending on the circumstances, I would be very angry. If possible, and certainly with great use of tact and common sense, then I think the truth should be used. Perhaps a naive statement, but so far from experience, I have found this to be the best route.

I do agree that intent plays a large role, but I don't know if this is a reasonable excuse. For example, an extreme case but, if someone died as the result of anothers' actions, would it be 'ok' if their intentions had been admirable? Does this excuse the death of the other? An unlikely situation, but one I have been confronted with as an example case on a number of times, and would be interested in your opinions.

Sorry if this is beginning to sound like a philosophy/morality lesson!
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Old 07-09-2006, 11:17 PM   Lifetme Service Award Officer #11
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Fuck. I typed a whole big post, and KKW logged me out, and now it's gone. I'll get back to you later.
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Old 08-09-2006, 09:54 AM   Officer #12
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I find myself intrigued with this thread. I'm sure it's the fact that I lost respect for a friend recently. Yeah, this might seem like an episode of teenage angst but I figured what the hell.

I lost respect for a friend when I arrived at a party, only to find her consumed in drink. In my eyes, I consider being alchohol/drug/smoke-free a moral act.
I know a lot of my friends drink underage, but I never thought that this specific girl drank. Having feelings for her the past 2 years did play a part in it because one of the main reasons I liked her for so long was because she never drank, smoke, did drugs. And when I saw her wobble across the floor and slur her speech, I started to question my own standards of morality and innocence. "Am I only the college student that hasn't 'lived life' and got wasted?" "Am I one of those goody two-shoes trapped inside my own personal bubble?"

I don't know. I was pretty bummed out after that night. So the following weekend, I told my cousin that I wanted to get high and so I got stoned for the first time. I don't know if I did it as some form of vindication or just to step outside my limits for once in my life. I don't think I learned anything from the experience. If anything, I've accepted that one's morals are what he or she makes of it. And that it's hard to judge people based on your standards of morality.

As for truth and lies, it all depends. Naturally, telling the truth would be moral and lying vice-versa. Of course there are circumstances that allow lies to be beneficial. And to automatically proclaim it as immoral is totally subjective. If your husband robs a bank and brings home the money, would it be immoral to not report him to the cops? Or would the fact that the family desperately needs the money prevent you from saying anything. Everything is subjective.
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:17 AM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! Moderator #13
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Originally Posted by Renegade
I find myself intrigued with this thread. I'm sure it's the fact that I lost respect for a friend recently. Yeah, this might seem like an episode of teenage angst but I figured what the hell.

I lost respect for a friend when I arrived at a party, only to find her consumed in drink. In my eyes, I consider being alchohol/drug/smoke-free a moral act.
I know a lot of my friends drink underage, but I never thought that this specific girl drank. Having feelings for her the past 2 years did play a part in it because one of the main reasons I liked her for so long was because she never drank, smoke, did drugs. And when I saw her wobble across the floor and slur her speech, I started to question my own standards of morality and innocence. "Am I only the college student that hasn't 'lived life' and got wasted?" "Am I one of those goody two-shoes trapped inside my own personal bubble?"

I don't know. I was pretty bummed out after that night. So the following weekend, I told my cousin that I wanted to get high and so I got stoned for the first time. I don't know if I did it as some form of vindication or just to step outside my limits for once in my life. I don't think I learned anything from the experience. If anything, I've accepted that one's morals are what he or she makes of it. And that it's hard to judge people based on your standards of morality.

As for truth and lies, it all depends. Naturally, telling the truth would be moral and lying vice-versa. Of course there are circumstances that allow lies to be beneficial. And to automatically proclaim it as immoral is totally subjective. If your husband robs a bank and brings home the money, would it be immoral to not report him to the cops? Or would the fact that the family desperately needs the money prevent you from saying anything. Everything is subjective.
Did this girl tell you that she didn't drink, smoke or do drugs, or was this perceived through your interaction with her? I have respect for those who don't drink, smoke or do drugs, but if they do, then I'm not that fazed. Unless such actions start changing the person that I started liking originally, in which case I will have a problem with it. Heavy drug users get cut off without question, imo they are a liability to have as friends, unless you use them for scoring drugs. (which I don't) The likelihood that they will write you letters from prison is not high, so why bother.

And you say its hard to judge people on the standards of your morality... how else would you judge a person? There is no definitive checklist that you can refer to, besides the broad things such as: murderers are bad, politicians are not to be trusted etc.
You could stay as open minded as possible, but even so, there has to be a point when you conciously or unconciously decide what kind of person they are, and having decided this, how you are going to continue interacting with them.

To stay as open minded as possible, I'll pretty much try anything once, which may occasionally brush the borders of what is morally acceptable. This may form some of the basis for the 'cliff is amoral' comment.

On a seperate note, I am of the firm belief that waiting 2 years for a girl (or anything at all) is ultimately pointless. I mean if you're not telling her how you feel because you might damage the friendship, then you're being dishonest to yourself. If she doesn't have a clue, then whos being protected?
It gets harder and harder as time passes, One of the main reasons why they can get scared is the fact that you've been looking at them in that way for years without them knowing, the friendship seeming like it was never 'real' or true, and thus the friendship can break down.
But thats a different thread topic entirely.
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Old 08-09-2006, 11:57 AM   Lifetme Service Award Officer #14
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This is going to be boring, trust me, I study the subject, but here's my two cents.

Conversations are linguistically based on a mutual agreement on the basics of language. These involve standard things such as grammar, but also social conventions, such as politeness. This is all based on what is called the cooperative principle. Basically, that is sociolinguistic lingo for the general agreement that the conversation is there to benefit all that are engaged in it: the messenger passes his message on, the listener learns new information. In doing so, there are four maxims to be taken into account:

1. quantity: the information is as informative as required
2. quality: speak the truth
3. relation: be relevant
4. manner: avoid ambiguity

When you flat out lie, you break the second maxim. When you exaggerate, you break the fourth, but only if the exaggeration is of such a nature that it isn't easily recognised as such. In being selective with the truth, you are breaking the first and fourth maxim. However, I don't think the later two examples, selectivity and exaggeration, are always harmful.

Say my friend walks into a club where me and my friends have agreed to meet up. She's bought a new outfit and asks me how she looks. I think it makes her look fat. She will gain nothing if I tell her that's what I think, because there is nothing she can do with that information. She's happy with her new outfit, and as long as she stays happy, she'll be more attractive then when I crush her confidence, even if she does change into something different. Thus, she is probably not helped by the truth. A better policy would be for me to wait till we're at her place sometime, in private, and tactfully try to find ways of making the outfit more flattering.

As for morality, I do judge people by my moral standards. There isn't much else I can do. I don't do drugs, but I will tolerate minor marijuana use among my friends, as long as they don't bother me with it. I will not be around them if they're on something, but what they do when I'm not around is their business. Anything heavier than that means I'll probably phase you out. Not necessarily intentionally, but partly because it makes me uncomfortable.

Which leads to my next point: innocence. I think innocence isn't a bad thing to have. Innocence doesn't have to be naive. I've made the concious choice that I do not want to try marijuana - I can, legally even, I've been offered a joint, but I don't want to. I've seen people rolling around on a lab table at school parties offering me that joint, and it's not an attractive look, and not one I wish to associate myself with. Again, what others do is their business, but don't bother me with it.

And drink? I like drink :icon_bigg Getting drunk every now and then isn't that bad in my book, although I don't particulary enjoy dragging people home and force-feeding them water in order to avoid them throwing up on my bed. Again, moderation is key. I have a friend who likes to drown her sorrows, and I don't consider her as much of a friend anymore, because she's a liability more than anything else (and of course, there's a whole BOOK of other issues, but that's for another time). Want to get drunk? Go ahead. Just don't expect me to drag you home every pub night.

Innocence can be something to be treasured: it can mean you've never had to deal with certain darker sides of life, and that's good. I've had a few experiences I'd love to give up to go back to that blissfully ignorent state of mind, but at the same time, I do believe that experiences that take away from innocence make you stronger. It's not a particularly enjoyable experience, but it serves a purpose.

I think halfway through I went off on a tangent and none of this is very coherent anymore, but there you have it, my two cents.
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Old 09-09-2006, 06:26 AM   #15
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Innocence, Honesty, & Morality

Innocence is being unprejudiced. (i.e. Not knowing better...)

Honesty is never telling lies (by commission or omission) and being responsible with property (not stealing.)

Morality means what your Community agrees that it means.

So, If you take the first two qualities, the combinations you can make will determine which community you will belong to in order to be able to classify morality.

Innocent+Honest=Johnny B. Goode
Innocent+NOT Honest=Victim
Not Innocent+Honest=Johnny B. Goode or Aqualung
Not Innocent+Not Honest=Bad News...

That wasn't hard when you categorize these "states" and put them in a Venn Diagram.

Part of the problem is that Morality is not part of the same world (dimension) as the other two. i.e. you can be innocent and moral and not innocent and moral and there is no distinction. And Honest and Moral and Not Honest and moral (or not moral, there is no difference except that you "run with a different crowd" depending on Morality.)
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Old 09-09-2006, 10:07 AM   Lifetme Service Award Officer #16
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Wouldn't you agree though, that you can retain your innocence regarding some aspects, even because you morally judge it to be wrong? I suppose you'd judge it by knowing something about it, which diminish the innocence, but you can be partly innocence: i.e. I know what drugs can do, but have never taken any, so I don't really know. Part of the reason I've never taken drugs is because I have some knowledge of what drugs can do.

I think it does all tie in together. I've heard some pretty awful things, mainly through my dad's work and his stories, but I'd describe myself as pretty damn innocent, though perhaps not as gullible as I would be without these stories.
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Old 12-09-2006, 07:44 AM   #17
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Wouldn't you agree though, that you can retain your innocence regarding some aspects, even because you morally judge it to be wrong? I suppose you'd judge it by knowing something about it, which diminishes the innocence, but you can be partly innocent: i.e. I know what drugs can do, but have never taken any, so I don't really know.
Yes. You can know a lot about something yet still be innocent. I have to believe that because I once met Richard Thompson's "beautiful redheaded girl" and I knew the "Angels on Ariels" that she married. So innocent, but so depraved... All at the same time.
How do I explain this so it makes sense. There was this beautiful redheaded girl that married my friend, (He rode an Ariel Square four motorcycle and was/might have been a member of The Hell's Angels [they did not keep a roster back then.] She was so sweet and innocent and so thoroughly into drugs and "The Wild Side of Life" that she went down a path that she never returned from...) She was so sweet and innocent, for awhile...

One of the main problems with drugs is that you don't have to know that you are taking the drug in order to be 'drugged'. Someone can give it to you without your knowledge and you can have the type of experience that you will chase for the rest of your life, (especially if you are innocent.) So here the innocence (about your 'friends') could be hurtful. But in and of itself it is sweet.
I have another friend (if drugs is the crux of the discussion,) who is "experienced." I suspect that there are few drugs out there that he has not tried. Back in the '60's he lived a couple of doors up the street from "The Grateful Dead," and they are/were all good friends. Yet, because he is such a strong personality, and so smart, he is still "innocent". He's never been "hooked" on any particular drug. And he is the poster child for "Honesty" and "Morality". However, his "Morality" is not yours, or mine, or especially your father's... He is true to his morality, probably more true than any of the people you know while you are in college will ever be. You just don't want to be in his position unless you have as many tools to deal with his multiple realities as he has.

I do remember, back when I was 17, that my first love captured me with her innocence, though she was far from innocent. I was the innocent one. But everybody has a story like that, because two innocent people rarely meet and fall in love. There's almost always a disparity in early relationships. I suspect that is where you try to use the "honesty" and "morality" to protect yourself. (Though you have to watch that "morality" really close as it is easy for many people to fake that. Remember that "morality" is defined by the "group you 'run with.'" So that Tele-Evangelist who got caught in the hooker's room was the epitomy of "morality" right up until he got caught, AND that was not the first hooker's room he had been in. It is easy to fake morality.)

So morality, including aCliff's bragging about his lack of morality (which only means that he thinks he is 'his own man' and doesn't follow other people's ideas of right and wrong,[a clear indication that he is not honest, since nobody is beyond morality]{except the truly innocent, and I think his braggadocio eliminates that position}) should not be the only thing you evaluate to judge a person's character. And, take it from me, Looks will only confuse the issue. That beautiful redheaded girl looked so sweet and innocent right up to the point where she climbed up on the table in that bar to dance naked for the rest of that motorcycle gang. (At least that's what her ex-husband told me.)
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Old 19-07-2007, 06:10 PM   #18
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morality is what should be your guide, but self preservation is what is truly your guide.
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Old 19-07-2007, 07:53 PM   Lifetme Service Award Officer #19
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None of that means anything unless you define morality, though. Self preservation is mostly clear, but to what extend should it be your guide? Would you take a beating in order to save or help a friend?

In other words, explain yourself, stranger, and we'll discuss things further.
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