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Old 11-06-2006, 06:08 PM   Attended an OMGWTFKKWBBQ! KKWiki Contributer Senior Registered Member #1027
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,168
Fucking hell Pete. Do me a favour. READ what I write next time. You've written two whole posts COMPLETELY misunderstanding the points I made so let me reclarify them for you. I'm not going to even continue to discuss this with you if you're just going to continue the beligerance, twisting the argument to suit your purposes. Several times you're misrepresenting what I've said. If you want to be right that badly I'll gladly just not debate with you. I appreciate you're passionate but engage your brain as well as your heart, please.

1) I never said the air quality around was worse than cigarette smoke, just that it has an impact on you too, and thus it does prevent proof that smoking CAUSES these diseases. Studies so far merely show correlation.

2) I've never wanted to prevent non-smokers having a choice. My argument was with you claiming passive smoke had more impact on you than other people's drinking. That is wrong. I'm refering not to YOUR drinking, try and keep up, I'm referring to the indirect results of drinking. Such as fights, drink driving etc.

3) No, you do not have a choice as to how alcohol affects you. You can only control your OWN drinking. Please pay attention while I go through this slowly for you. If an idiot gets drunk and kills you drink driving, that is not your choice. The law bans him from doing so, but people do it all the time, and when you're dead, what do you care that he's in prison?

4) In response to your point about breast cancer please read the following message from Ash, an anti-smoking lobby in the UK:

Some studies have demonstrated a link between both active and passive smoking and breast cancer. The IARC review concluded that most epidemiological studies have found no association between active smoking and breast cancer
The studies are inconclusive.

5) Nice one but no cookie? I smoke because I choose to, I've quit for 2 years before, and then started again because I WANTED to. I actually like the taste and smell of cigarettes. I realise not everyone does, which is why I try to be considerate over it. I agree that you shouldn't have to suffer it if you don't, but banning smoking is not the solution. There are compromises that can be worked. I didn't take issue with you not wanting smoke in your eyes or whatever, just with the idea that passive smoking is more deadly than the indirect effects of alcohol.

6) I never said people would trade cigarettes for alcohol. That would be stupid. Alcohol is far more damaging. What I said was, and let me quote this for you:

So many alcoholics decide to trade addictions and move to cigarettes as alcohol is the most dangerous drug there is.
I realise English isn't your first language so I've since calmed down from my initial rage at you CONTINUALLY misstating what I said. However, let me REPEAT lest you misunderstand again: Most alcoholics move to cigarettes as cigarettes are less damaging. Not just on them, but on the people around them. I've met alcoholics who beat their wives, drove their children away, and even one guy who got done for drink-driving, and very nearly killed someone. They move TO cigarettes because passive smoking will never ruin as many lives as alcohol abuse.

7) The studies do not PROVE that cigarettes cause that many deaths. They merely ESTIMATE. It's correlation, not causation, my point is that historically tobbaco smoking has decreased as cancer risks have gone up, showing that if the correlation was taken back far enough, it would prove nothing. The point is that since it's not causation, but correlation, the timeframe makes all the difference. I'm not denying that smoking increases risks, only that it doesn't actually CAUSE cancer.

As for why I question studies from question government reports, don't you? Everyone has a vested interest, a bias. Universities often get grants, by health organisations, anti-smoking lobbies etc. If the same universities got grants from Imperial Tobacco you can bet your arse that we'd see reports saying smoking makes you better in bed etc. It's all spin. You have to question it and apply common sense to EVERYTHING. Even medical reports, as yes, there is bias.

8) I'd probably collapse running against you, but then I would have when I was 10 too. I've never been a great runner, plus I don't like running much, so I've never gotten better. I don't deny that smoking's probably made me less healthy, but so's drinking. You say athletes avoid smoke for that reason; they avoid alcohol for the same reasons. Most top professional footballers, for example, don't drink.

9) Not smoking at the bar protects bar staff because their worst exposure has been shown to be by people sitting at the bar smoking. When they go round the tables, they hardly have time to inhale anything.

Look, Pete, if you really want to continue this, let's do it on another thread, because this is pointless. Although I don't even see the point of doing that, because we're just going round in circles. Making the same arguments. It's like a broken record.
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