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apoggy
07-10-2004, 02:44 PM
So, I went to a seminar this morning thinking I was about to embark on an hour of talking Management Information Systems, bore.

In fact we talked about A.I. and used this as a model for programmed decision making.

The basis of the seminar was on Asimov's The Naked Sun and the laws a robot is programmed with.

So what do any of you think of A.I. both technologically and socioeconomically?

Will the events that happened in films such as A.I, I, robot, Terminator, Matrix........

NearokA
07-10-2004, 04:32 PM
Intelligent robots? Now there's an interesting question. For a robot to have the intelligence of man, it'd have to have some way of representing the world, and some way of modeling itself in this representation of the world.

A robot would need to be self learning, which would require many terabytes of memory. A robot would need to realize that death is inevitable for all things, because of the concept of entropy, nothing can last forever without having a source of infinite energy.

A robot would need to ask itself, can life exist beyond mere circuitry and metal casing? I don't think that the issues address in sci-fi movies will happen anytime soon. If you stop and think about it, biological systems are 100 times more complex than simple computer algorthims and circuitry. Biological systems happen at the nano-scale (or angstom if you happen to be non US lol) in which proteins interact through specific chemistry and hydrogen bonding. Just because something has complicated and advanced processing, it doesn't mean that it understands that complicated advanced processing. Hell, we don't even understand our complicated advanced processing. lol.

This age they call the information age full of semi-conducting and super-conducting materials. I believe the next age will be the biological age. The move from conventional metals to organic materials such as composite polymers and composite ceramics and biological mimicry. Right now, my research composes of looking at composite ceramic glass fibers found in sea sponge skeletons. These fibers are both mechanically stable (more so than manufactured glass fibers) and have excellent optical properties and might one day be used as advanced optical fiber cable. In Japan, they are utilizing fibers synthesized from salmon DNA in hopes of creating the ultimate optical fiber cable. There are even some Chinese researchers working on protein-based, self growing computer chips. And even further, there are professors in my very own department working on self-assembly of protein machinery.

I believe that robots will one day posses that kind of intelligence. But for now, our technology is just too primitive. Once we learn how to manipulate nature on a nano-scale, we can begin to realize the complexity of life. So I have a question for you, do you postulate that we are in fact, machinery that has indeed realized it's own consciousness? Do you believe that some ancient race has created us with advanced nano-science? If you stop and think about the complexity and function of proteins and molecules in the body, one can't help but to ask himself, can these processes really arise on mere coincedence?

Liam
07-10-2004, 04:50 PM
If I dont care, what chance has a robot got?

Even if all this bio-science stuff comes to fruition and they can build some sort of fancy robot, you still have to program it. And self-perpetuating code is impossible to write using current technology.

You can write code to make a lawn mower work on its own, slam into a tree and reverse, and thats about the limit of our capabilities at present. Imagine what a servant robot based on similar code could achieve.

'Help. I have fallen, and I can't get up.'

hasselbrad
07-10-2004, 06:34 PM
You can write code to make a lawn mower work on its own, slam into a tree and reverse, and thats about the limit of our capabilities at present. Imagine what a servant robot based on similar code could achieve.

Sadly...this seems to be the extent most "natural" intelligence on our planet.

Narzys
07-10-2004, 09:27 PM
What makes us human beings??? Can we make that artificial?
If we are not machines because of our high intelligent brain, what are animals then? They do not have such high intelligence. Are animals machines then? I don't think so.
A human can argue on many terrains. Machines can't. It's just very high code on ONE thing.

frodo1511
07-10-2004, 09:37 PM
Hmmm... AI: good idea in video games(the smarter, the better), good for robots to an extent(I'd rather keep them from thinking on their own-R2D2 is an exception:P)

Yes, we all know the deal: Skynet takes over in 2012, all of our nukes are used against us, and machines use the remaining survivors for energy, harnessing their body heat for sustinence.

NearokA
07-10-2004, 10:28 PM
'Help. I have fallen, and I can't get up.'

As always, your comments never cease to amuse me. :icon_lol:
And you know what, I'm not even drunk yet!

Clinton
08-10-2004, 12:22 AM
“So I have a question for you, do you assume that we are in fact, machinery that has indeed realized it's own consciousness? Do you believe that some ancient race has created us with advanced nano-science? If you stop and think about the complexity and function of proteins and molecules in the body, one can't help but to ask himself, can these processes really arise on mere coincidence?”

I once spoke to a man who has access to great knowledge. He mentioned a superior social order, the one accountable for us. It is indeed possible that we are a biological breakthrough, or a discarded task swept to the periphery of the cosmos, by a greater civilization.

If you observe the history of this race , you will discover that people are devolving. Yes devolving, We are becoming less intelligent ever passing year. Your probably asking yourself, How that is possible, we are learning new things everyday? Well If we look back to the time of the pharaoh, we can observe an example of a greater intelligence than the one we posses today. Pyramids? How is it possible that these mammoth structures, are more advanced than any architectural achievements of our time. These structures were built with such precise placement. The ones responsible for it must have possessed immense knowledge in geometry and other math’s. Also how could the structure’s be constructed, even today we do not posses the machinery capable of moving those massive slab’s. And don’t be fooled in thinking that it was created by the heeve hoooo method, of thousands of slave’s.

People of those times possessed greater knowledge of the earth and the ability to harness it’s powers.

Our world has gone through numerous devastating periods, Ones that have wiped out entire civilizations. Who is to say that there weren’t superior beings prior to us. I believe we are re-gaining knowledge that we once possessed.

Hopefully you can contemplate my thoughts and build upon them. Consider a greater actuality that once was, and will be.


Great thinking NearoKa

NearokA
08-10-2004, 04:32 AM
I'm pretty sure a few atom bombs would decimate ancient Egypt pretty fast. If we really wanted to, I'm sure we could construct a pyramid like structure. I don't the we've been de-evolving. I mean, there are too many technological advances here, I wouldn't know where to begin. Egyptians had two things, lots of manpower, and lots of time. Most of those pryamids took a few lifetimes to make.

So another question comes to me, if we do create machines that could think, would they aspire to be something greater than themselves? In other words, would they look upon their creators (us) and call them...god? Would you think it absurd that a robot would think of you as a god and treat you as such (until you cease providing them with infinite happiness, in which of course, they rebel). Looking from that perspective, it sheds some light on just why is it we humans should worship some deity "just because he created us."

I mean, our parents created us. They give us financial support for life and shelter, but do we ever think to worship them? Is it because when we get older, we cease to think they posses that kind of magic we once saw when we were just little kids?

Clinton
08-10-2004, 01:39 PM
Take a look at this article I found. I think it is rather interesting……Try to read it all

Science and Religion errs because: Physical evidence indicate that our ancestors were ADVANCED. They possessed high technology. Instead, a super-metropolis existed on a global scale tens of thousands of years ago: ATLANTIS. The human race began in a super-society that landed here!
Atlantis was Eden in the real world. It was originally a Paradise. These sites, which are an ancient-global energy-grid, now lay in ruin. This was a lost age that unites the early Pre-Inca with the early Pre-Egyptians. Some greater Mother-Civilization must account for the vast numbers of similarities on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
One of the most interesting theories as to what happened to the Atlantis continent is the idea that it is Antarctica! The land mass did not sink; it was moved to the South Pole. Antarctica is so heavily guarded. Very few people have permission to visit Antartica. It is virtually a frozen Area 51. What wonders could be hidden under all the snow and ice? Could there be the remnants of pyramids larger than the Great Pyramid?
This once grand and glorious empire could not maintain perfection over time. Utopia once existed right here on Earth. Our ancestors were far greater than we are today. Paradise is in our very nature. We were not primal animals, but prehistoric gods. We could literally move mountains. The age of pyramid-building is in our deep subconscious. The monolithic constuctions of the Old World were not created by thousands of slaves and the 'heave-ho' method. Traditionally, the astronomical alignments of the stones would have been unknown to these early civilizations.
The pyramids were not tombs, No mummies were ever discovered inside the main ones at Giza. There is no sarcophagus inside these incredible structures. Inside the misnamed King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid, there is a 'coffer.' A king has to crawl to enter the chamber in this impossible construction known as the Great Pyramid. The coffer appears as a large, stone bathtub. There are legends of initiates entering the King's Chamber and leaving with all the wisdom in the world. Were participants struck with bolts of enlightenment...which today is known as the subtle force of pyramid energy? The pyramids are machines. When it comes to people walking around sites such as the Great Pyramid, Stonehenge, Easter Island, etc...it is like we are ants crawling inside a transistor radio. The true purpose and original intent of the mechanism is so far over our heads.
Do not take Egyptian tours and believe the tour guide; do not read traditional books or see the usual Discovery Channel/Nova documentary and believe the information. The Maya were not human-sacrificing savages. That view is not consistent with builders who can construct magnificent installations with far superior means than today's modern techniques. Present educators still teach the savage, ancient, American Indian concept probably because of ego. Academicians want you to swallow the idea that there was a smooth, upwardly-moving curve of progress to the human race. In other words, that we are superior to the early humans. Nothing could be farther from the truth. We began in the highest form of spiritual and physical existence. It has been downhill ever since. Atlantis was destroyed and its survivors were the Pre-Egyptians and Pre-Incas. Later, after more paradises and destructions, came the age of Egypt and the Inca. As we go back in time, the greater the civilization. The age of stone stuctures ended and there was the amazing Cahokia, Hopi and Anastasi tribes. They constructed fantastic earthen buildings with curved rooms and pyramids. After Egypt, there were intermediate civilizations such as Sumeria and Babylon. They were before the Greeks and they were more advanced than the Greeks.
The Great Pyramid is the oldest pyramid, not the last one in a long line of pyramid-building. It is located in the exact center of all the land masses. It is perfectly aligned. The other pyramids were built later and not as well constructed. The Step Pyramid and Bent Pyramid at Dashur are not earlier attempts. They were built much later than Giza and were crude versions of pyramids. The later, smaller pyramids were no longer aligned to the directions. Society was losing knowledge. Again, this indicates a retro-grade technology.
In Peru, there are massive Incan foundation stones in the hundreds of tons. On top of these monoliths, another age rebuilt the structure; but the stones are in the 30 to 40 ton range. On top of this age, there is another age; they could only cut and trim stones that were one or two tons. The flying indians still kept these sites holy (or for ley line purposes?) by rebuilding them...but they could move less and less weight over thousands of years.
The pyramids are sophisticated energy transceivers. In a hundred years, when we explore other worlds, we will visit new planets and set up colonies. We will then use Tesla's EM principles to tap into the planet's electrical fields by building pyramids and creating energy grids around the new planet. This scenario has already happened in our distant prehistory. Our ancestors mastered: wireless energy, cloning, space travel, atomic energy, anti-gravity, lasers, etc. Every aspect of known technology was perfected in Atlantis; as well as machines beyond your wildest dreams.
The ancients moved the monoliths on a cushion of electricity. Anti-gravity certainly can be achieved. How else can 100 ton or 200 ton stones be set in place with incredible precision? The 8000 ton obelisk, the Stone of the South in Lebanon, could not have been formed by simple means. The most amazing example of cut and transported stonework in the continental U.S. is Coral Castle in Florida; built in the 20th Century. Ed Leedskalnin knew the secret of anti-gravity and stated that the ancient monoliths were moved electriclly.
The mortarless stonework of the Inca and Egyptians had to have been constructed with powerful lasers. Focused energy could slice through granite like a hot knife through butter. The stone quarries were nowhere near the final resting places of the ancient monoliths. These special stones were 'brought in.' Only a super-society can build on this mammoth scale.
Anti-gravity is how the ancients moved the great stones. {This is exactly what we would do in the future on a new, planetary colony; our explorers would use natural, long-lasting, materials (stone) and construct permanent bases. We would know how to tap into a planet's EM fields by building pyramids (lens) and utilizing this natural flow for power}. By completing a grid of colonies circling ancient Earth, the Atlanteans could wirelessly plug into any point on the planet for electrical power.
The problem with centralized power towers is: If the transmitters are destroyed, there goes the whole grid! Each Atlantean colony; each Cradle of Civilization; had to protect its tower. But in an all out war, these power towers could be made to implode. Destroying a Tesla-principled, World System at its heart...could be what brought down Atlantis. The most efficient way of generating and distributing electricity is also a dangerous enterprise if the powerhouse or station is not adequately protected.
When something goes wrong with your television picture, don't you change channels? Isn't that because you want to see if the problem is your set or the station sending the signal? For thousands of years, the Atlanteans relied on their wireless grid always being there like television reception. But, one fateful day, the power plug was pulled; no more electricity out of thin air...All vehicles failed; all machines came to a crashing halt and all cities became powerless.
Later ages had to pick up the pieces after the many super wars that have occurred on Earth; to the point of reusing what they could from the previous age. They also rebuilt the world grid, but not to the extent of the earlier age. It has been argued: Where are the saucers and all of the fantastic devices of Atlantis? The survivors reused everything in New Atlantis. Time erased so much; we are talking about much longer periods of time than what the history books tell us. Then, there was a Great Flood that washed the evidence away. All that survived the catastrophe would be pyramids, great statues and the ancient monoliths.
The Inca contructed massive fortresses very high up in the Andes Mountains. Were these strongholds where they preserved knowledge and technology? Were they safe-guarding important records in the aftermath of the global devastation, post Atlantis? Skulls have been found of ancient Peruvians with holes in very sensitive areas of the brain. These were sophisticated operations on areas of the brain where modern doctors will not touch. There is evidence of healing; so we know these advanced brain operations were conducted on living people. Stone rooms were discovered to contain huge numbers of large-brained Cro-Magnons. Were these cloning experiments? The Inca also had modern dentistry.
Ruins were discovered in Central America around the Vera Cruz area. This was another mysterious civilization known as the Olmecs. Large, 50 ton stone heads were found in dense jungles. The faces appeared African; which (supposedly) is a society that these indians should not have known. The Olmec pyramids were larger than Mayan pyramids. What was interesting is the age of this new discovery: Olmecs were placed before the Maya but not as old as the Inca. Olmecs might have been the first jungle dwellers in Central America. Here, again, the earlier race is the more sophisticated. Inca to Olmec to Maya to Aztec to American Indian...is the deevolution. All originated from primal Atlantis. And Atlantis was as high-tech as you can get.

To be continued …….

Clinton
08-10-2004, 01:43 PM
I know I'm not supposed to double post but the article i would like to share is too big to fit in one post and i can't find the website to link. I also suggest you read it because it is very interesting..............


Continuation ………….

The Maya made little sculptures of what were taken for insects by archeology. They are actually small models of delta-wing fighters. The later Mayan Age no longer had saucer-vimannas, they had airplanes. The models have rough versions of people in the cockpit. The archeologist sees this as the eye of the 'insect.' These are representations of Aztec aircraft; the perfect intermediate age. These flying indians were still advanced, but not as great as a few thousand years earlier...with light-speed Incas.
Nazca's lines prove that our ancestors had flying vehicles. The interesting fact on this flat plain is: The lines do not go and then stop suddenly. If you examine all of the large drawings (the dog, etc.) that only make sense from high in the air...the lines are one continuous motion. It is like the Nazca lines were sprayed. They were lasered from the air. In a land with virtually no erosion and weathering, these 4 inch-wide marks could last thousands of years. The large Trident at the Bay of Pisco is actually a drawing of a rocket with thruster flames.

If we came from apes, why are there living apes today? The question is: How did one group of primates evolve so fast (and became us) and other apes have remained the same over time? Gorillas and chimps should be found only in the fossil record...if we originally came from apes. But, they are alive right now. You can pet a monkey. Humans and apes have lived in the same environment. What so drastically changed one group of them? It is not how similar we are to apes; it is how greatly different we are from them. There is no genealogical connection between humans and apes. The missing-link does not exist; therefore, it will never be found.

Mr. Evolutionist thinks that subtle changes happen over incredibly long periods of time. That is true; slow changes occur. But, what history teaches us is that big changes have happened quickly. Many of these violent, world-changing, events down through history were not natural. Great changes have happened, by artificial means; such as ancient nuclear wars. In India, some of the first books describe what could only be atomic explosions and various flying vehicles. There are reports of what was a forcefield weapon that could sweep across the land and literally level everything.
My Atlantis is a wonderful utopia...before it became corrupted. There was indiscriminate cloning. They played God and could whip up life in a test-tube. This was Brave New World where technology was used to genetically improve humanity. There were no anti-cloning laws in Atlantis. In George Pal's Atlantis: the Lost Continent there were numerous advanced technologies portrayed: flying machines and submarines; powerful, laser weapons from large crystals and genetic engineering. Human subjects were being changed into animals. Our mythological creatures could be memories from days in Atlantis of ancient DNA experiments.
When we see Egyptian drawings of a birdman and dogman: Who is to say that these are only costumes? Anubis, Ra, Isis, Osiris and other Egyptian gods could have been aliens or the result of genetic engineering.
The feathered-serpent became the god of the Maya; Quetzalcoatl. He was a great teacher, bringer of knowledge and light; he came from the stars and he returned to the stars. The Aztec had the exact same legend with their god Kukukan. Thousands of years earlier, the Incas had their savior with the god Viracocha. Was it reincarnation that bonded these societies? Were they destined to repeat the same events over and over?
My Atlantis is out of every window. My Atlantis is here today. Where is Atlantis? WE are the New Atlanteans. Our history stretches so much longer that we are taught. Great civilizations devolved into lesser societies. Only since the Dark Ages has technology been on the rise. We are a very old lifeform. We are merely reinventing machines and techniques that were mastered by our ancestors. Computers and space travel are ancient history. Our ancestors were better than we are in every respect. Today, we could never build a copy of the Great Pyramid.
What this writer has learned; knowing that Atlantis did exist and spawned the human race...and this is very important: Our primal instinct is not one of animalistic, kill or be killed, struggle for survival. War is alien to our nature. Killing is foreign to our primal instinct. Hatred must be taught and is not our nature. Instead; peace, love, reason and understanding are at the core of our soul. Yes, conflict, war and utter destructions are a big part of our history. But, the paradise of Atlantis, the Eden, lasted for thousands of years before there was ever a serpent in the Garden. We are good. Just look at a child who has not yet learned to hate. A child is not prejudice. There are no color barriers with children. They instinctively love. The human race has great potential. The future is not unknown territory. The future has already happened so very long ago in the distant past.

Mandy
08-10-2004, 01:55 PM
I don't know anyone who'd read all that, you know.

NearokA
08-10-2004, 03:22 PM
I don't know anyone who'd read all that, you know.

I read it.

Anyways, I never realized you like pyramids so much, that was actually kind of interesting. So I don't doubt that ancient civilizations were advanced for their time (considering they had those technologies in BC era), however, you made the assumption that ancient civilizations are much more advanced that we are today, and that my friend, is far from the truth.

Partly why technologies are lost is mostly due to wars and natural disasters. These things destroy our knowledge and force us to start over again. I'm sure if the ancient greeks/mayans/egyptians were still alive and all that, we'd be much more advanced. It's a pity really, but what can be done? Power will always be that thing which we all desire and in the end, it will only destroy us, or at least hinder us greatly.

What this all has to do with robots, I have no idea, but it's all interesting nevertheless. Perhaps we can move into robot wars or something like that. hehe. That would be fun. Or perhaps we are the robots and we are merely just reflecting on the past?

O and btw, the missing link hasn't been found yet. THat doesn't mean it doesn't exist. heh. And I'm pretty sure things like Ra and all that are just human concpetions, I wouldn't go as far as genetic engineering here. I mean, in the 1400's they postulated griffons and dragons and yadayadayada...that doesn't mean that those anglo-saxon guys created griffons from lions, eagles and what not. I'm sure the greeks had their share of centaurs and cylcops and in the 1700s they had all those weird demons being toads and human faces and pigs all tied into one thing. Come on. lol.

frodo1511
09-10-2004, 04:15 AM
The pyramids of Egypt were built by Predators that came to our planet millenia ago. How else could their dimensions be so perfect(human hands couldn't do that)


Sorry if Clinton or NearokA said it above, I'm too lazy to read their whole posts.

Clinton
09-10-2004, 12:37 PM
Right! You just keep telling yourself that.

NearokA
09-10-2004, 04:16 PM
If I dont care, what chance has a robot got?

Even if all this bio-science stuff comes to fruition and they can build some sort of fancy robot, you still have to program it. And self-perpetuating code is impossible to write using current technology.

You can write code to make a lawn mower work on its own, slam into a tree and reverse, and thats about the limit of our capabilities at present. Imagine what a servant robot based on similar code could achieve.

'Help. I have fallen, and I can't get up.'

Did you program yourself? Or did someone program you?
To put it shortly, proteins and biological molecules aren't programmed. They work based on chemistry, very specific hydrogen bonding sites. The brain works on electrochemistry, neurons and such and how we get intelligence and consciousness from it is still a mystery (if you say what we have is even consciousness, can you imagine being more self-aware than you are now, what if we've only scratched the surface?). I suppose you could argue that DNA sequencing is our programming. But DNA sequencing itself is wildly complex but you can see how genes are still our limiting factor just as convential programming is the limiting factor for A.I. Don't limit robots here to just computer programs which man has created and are obviously flawed. Computer hardware only works at the micron level (10^-6 m). The brain works at the nano level (10^-9 m). You see here how much more complex it is? Do you have any idea how fast the brain accesses information from it's memory? It's a helluva lot faster than the pc sitting on your desk.

Don't limit this discussion merely to real world examples. Try and use your imagination a bit but don't go off on wild tangents (like the predators -.- lol).

frodo1511
09-10-2004, 04:35 PM
Don't limit this discussion merely to real world examples. Try and use your imagination a bit but don't go off on wild tangents (like the predators -.- lol).


What?! In AVP, they talked about how the Predators modeled their pyramid off of Egyptian, Kenyan, and Malasyian archetecture to create a hybrid.

But there is still discussion that aliens built the pyramids...

NearokA
09-10-2004, 05:09 PM
Clinton, you're not seriously trying to argue that they had Global television and flying machines in 10,000 BC are you? You know, I don't even think man possessed a high level intelligence that far back. I mean, you're going to need to logically argue this standpoint more farther then that article if you want me to believe that.

Different places of the world had different stages of technological advances. I mean, the Greeks are the ones who invented geometry, and that was something like 300 BC. The mayans were the first to come up with the concept of zero, was that something like a few hundred AD? I mean, Isaac Newton (that white guy) invented calculus and that was something like 1600 AD. And most recently we have chaos math and quantum mechanics. Can you imagine trying to do physics without the concept of derivatives and intergrals? How could you derive thermodynamics, differential equations, kinetic theory, etc? If you ask me, I see a steady progression, not a steady decline.

There is no evidence that ancient civilizations knew the concept of summing infintesamly small quanties from a certain range. In order to have advanced technology, you must have advanced mathematics. I'm sorry, but conjuring up hovering machines just doesn't work for me. I mean, I don't need to see a 2000 year old flying machine, but I would at least like to see some mathematics somewhere there, which there are none. Why do you think the Spanish were able to defeat hordes of Aztecs? I'm pretty sure guns and ships and cannons had something to do with it. If the Romans could whip the Pharohs of Egypt, I'm pretty sure the US military could do it 10 times faster. And come on here, if a guy had 100 billion dollars and really wanted to make a pyramid larger than the ones in Egypt, do you think he couldn't? We probably wouldn't use primitive high density stone either. Not to undermine your theory here, but in all honesty, most of that seems like wishful fancy.

We are living in the most advanced stages of intelligence ever seen on this planet. Granted, the ancients were pretty advanced considering it was in the BC era, but I'm sure they never heard of semi-conductors before nor would they have the means to produce such pure quantities of silicon wafers. I mean, have you ever heard of Greeks doping silicon with small quantities of phosphorus in a very precise, engineering manner? I'm sure the ancients had some knowledge of metallurgy, but do you think that they had thermal phase transformation diagrams? Do you even know that each metal undergoes different phase transformations and crystal structures depending on the temperature and how fast it's cooled? Have you even seen the microstructure of a metal surface using an electron microscope? Did you know that some metals undergo a ductile to brittle transformation when they reach different temperatures and that the reason why the titanic failed (aside from the iceberg) was because they used a BCC (body centered cubic) crystal structure steel which turns very brittle (shatters) when it reaches cold temperatures (FCC metals like aluminum don't exhibit this behavior)? The japanese used composite metals (1000's of layers) to create really strong swords. The turks and romans used solid solution impurites to improve their swords. But we both can agree here that these materials are no where near as advanced as the high performance aluminum and high temperature ceramics found in jet aircraft.

The only exception I can think of this is if we were created by some advanced alien race. But let's not go there otherwise frodo here will try and convince me that predators created humans and aliens run amuck every few thousand years. lol.

Clinton
09-10-2004, 05:43 PM
Who is to say the history books are precise? Who knows what technologies have existed before our time. What I am suggesting is that there was a more sophisticated civilization in our prehistory. Not only advanced for their time, but for ours as well. Also who is to say that our ancestors didn’t possess far more intricate concepts and theories then we have. Perhaps our lack of comprehension blinds us of from the reality of the past. Possibly the ancients possess greater power than we believe or maybe they were the primitive beings the records make then out to be……………………



Question: Do you believe that there could be life on other planets???

And, What is time??

Why do we assume that aliens are highly advanced creatures???

What world does an ant see? Are we seen as ants to a superior?

barrington
10-10-2004, 02:28 AM
If Earth contained any civilisations in the past more advanced than we thought, there would be evidence for that. There isn't any. Case closed.

Advanced civilisations leave a trail of debris and evidence for their existence. Move the earth forward millions of years and there'd be NO shadow of a doubt that humans had been here.

So what if ancient people had knowledge above us - they obviously didnt use it for anything useful, therefore the point is invalid.

This is a stupid thread populated by wanna-believe fanboys that watched too much sci-fi.

NearokA
10-10-2004, 02:52 AM
This is a stupid thread populated by wanna-believe fanboys that watched too much sci-fi.

-.-

Clinton may be right, but what he's saying probably isn't that plausible. Don't completely discredit him, perhaps there may be some truth to it (although I'm not sure how much of it is true). We haven't explored all the earth so...there isn't 100% sufficent proof that an advanced civilization did not exist so it's always worth discussing.

Because something hasn't yet been proven or disproven, one cannot say with certainty, although most the evidence leans towards the ancients not being that advanced.

Genius is often on the verge of craziness.

Question: Do you believe that there could be life on other planets???
There are about 100 million or so galaxies each with about a few billion planets or so. I'm pretty sure we're not that unique. So my answer is yes.

And, What is time??
Time is a relative measurement we use to describe dates and events. In short, it's used so we can keep a log of what has happened. On the grand scheme of things, time proably doesn't exert much force on the universe considering it's been around for roughly 12 billion years.

Why do we assume that aliens are highly advanced creatures???
Because we assume that aliens will visit us, thereby they have found a superior means of energy management and space travel. However, we have never presupposed that all aliens are advanced. They think there are bacteria living on one of Jupiter's moons. Those would be aliens.

What world does an ant see? Are we seen as ants to a superior?
Define superior. Imagine trying to teach a beetle the laws of physics. The chances of you succeeding are very small. Now imagine our intelligence is like a beetle compared to an advanced alien race. Think how hard it would be for them to describe to us the nature of the universe. We are probably smaller than ants. We are probably mere atoms running amuck on one planet when you compare our size to the universe.

I have a question for you, do you think robots will be able to equal our intelligence someday? lol. Poggs is going to ban us all if we don't stay on topic. :p

Clinton
10-10-2004, 03:00 AM
Clearly your not thinking outside the box. Perhaps you should examine all the articles in this thread before you write rubbish. Maybe there isn't any confirmation of a superior race, however there could be numerous reasons for that. It's people like you that are narrow mined that are holding the human race back from progressing.


This is in reply to Barrington



And Naeroka I’m inquisitive to where you gain your information


I have a question for you, do you think robots will be able to equal our intelligence someday?

WHAT IS A ROBOT?

a mechanism that performs a variety of intricate acts (as walking or talking) of a human being.

In order for robots to equal or surpass our intellect they would have to grasp the concept of reality. This is unlikely to occur in our lifetime, but nevertheless will happen. It’s inevitable, time is the only factor, the human mind is limitless.

Once a robot discovers reality and becomes cognizant it’s no longer a robot and will function as an individual. It will learn and develop and possibly exceed it’s creator.

NearokA
10-10-2004, 06:02 AM
And Naeroka I’m inquisitive to where you gain your information.

Physics text book and the discovery channel. lol. I also have numerous volumes of math texts, metals, polymers, etc. and some philosophy essays. Stuff from the ancient greeks as well as some modern day philosophers and I also have a few biology books.


In order for robots to equal or surpass our intellect they would have to grasp the concept of reality. This is unlikely to occur in our lifetime, but nevertheless will happen. It’s inevitable, time is the only factor, the human mind is limitless.


Human mind isn't limitless. I think it's limited as far as our genetic programming will allow us to go. But then, our programming is adaptive, that is through mutation, we are able to "change the code" and evolve. Personally, I don't think a robot made of mere metals and wires could achieve what we are, but someday, we may make a robot with more advanced materials similar to our own but tailored to fit specific functions.

Nature works with the best materials in the surrounding environment which is limited to a specific ecosytem. Our environment is the Earth, so I think if we can understand how nature maniuplates molecules, we could devise our own robots to take our place which may have much more advanced properties and it would be like the lasting remanants of mankind. Sort of like nano-machines with protein like properties which we can then shoot off into space in little modules, wait a few hundred bilion years, and see what comes up.

Which brings me to another theory. Perhaps your theory of an ancient race isn't too far fetched. What if we are the last remanants of an advanced race and what they left were the building blocks for "life." Our bodies and our genetic programming were tailored by this thing we call natural selection to best adapt to our environment. I mean, if you stop and think about it, at first, big and strong was good. Just look at the dinosaurs. But you can see that big muscles will get you as far as the Earth. After the dinosaurs died out, the age of mammals came and from mammals, intelligence.

Do you think intelligence is the ultimate evolution? If you look at bacteria, you'll see that an organism with no intelligence whatsoever is still a pretty tough enemy due to their extreme adaptability. Or do you think that one day when it is our time to be extinct, that nature will conjure something more dangerous. If you study the timeline, you begin to see that everytime nature has to start over, it starts over with organisms of a higher adaptability.

In short, we don't have to presuppose that machines must be humanoid and possess intelligence. They can be like bacteria and eukaryotic cells, and be the building blocks to a higher order being.

Clinton
10-10-2004, 09:23 PM
Ya know what, only time will tell.

NearokA
13-10-2004, 03:24 PM
Ya know what, only time will tell.

Time? TIME? Don't ever leave things to time. Time will tell is a meaningless statement to me. What will "tell" are people like you and me. Discussions will bring us inspiration.

I work with Phd scientists and engineers everyday. Believe me, all they do is sit around and talk about crazy and wild ideas. And once they find insipration in one of these crazy ideas, they ask themselves, what can I do to make this crazy idea into a reality? How can I represent my idea and back it up with experimental data? How can I convince others that my idea is sound?

Scientists do things completely crazy and wild and they get nobel prizes for it. Crazy things like Yttrium Barium Copper Oxide as a superconductor. Everybody knows oxides don't conduct. DUh! Everybody laughed at these scientists. They were like Barrington and said they lived "sci-fiction" fantasies and they are wasting their time. But you know what? If you cool Yttrium Barium Copper Oxide to liquid nitrogen temperatures(something like -200 C), then it does conduct! And it conducts a hellva lot faster than metals!! And these scientists got a nobel prize for their crazy idea.

THe point is, don't stop discussing. No matter how stupid or far fetched the idea may sound. Cuz you just never know!! I hope what we talked about will inspire you to join robotics or bio-mimetics or AI programming. It's people that make it happen, not random chance.

Adolf-The-Apple
13-10-2004, 04:29 PM
The only think a computer can do is calculate with algorithms. When someone (who is intelligent and has a lot of time) finds an alogithm which is able to write itself new, computers can learn.
When someone sees that a computer can play chess better than anyone else he/she might thing, that it is inteligent, but it's only artificial. It's only a simulator which plays as if it's intelligent. Programming a chess-computer is very easy when you know a programming language.
So any good programmer can make a chess-computer that plays better then himself.

Clinton
13-10-2004, 05:22 PM
As I have said before, in order for a machine to become intelligent it would have to be conscious of it self and also have a concept of reality. This would make it human, it would have to learn and display emotions.

Before we can create intelligent robots, we have to find out how the mind works. How it processes information, and stores it? What keeps it updated and aware? And when are we first conscious of reality? If we can discover the mysteries behind these questions and understand how the processes work, then we will have the knowledge needed to create an AI so intelligent that it could think and learn willingly and unassisted, but also understand others opinions and take then into account.

How does our brain, which is physical, interpret what we see, then create an image? What are we really seeing?

Have you ever asked yourself, Who am I ???

hasselbrad
13-10-2004, 05:28 PM
How does our brain, which is physical, interpret what we see, then create an image? What are we really seeing?

Have you ever asked yourself, Who am I ???

Good question. When LSD is plugged into the equation, your brain sees things that aren't there. Your conciousness can make you see what you want to see. The human brain is more amazing than any computer.
I think when we are able to create a machine that thinks like a human, God will kickstart the Apocolypse.

Clinton
13-10-2004, 06:53 PM
Dreams!! What are dreams? Do they give us a vision of the future or perhaps a distant memory? What factors shape our dreams and why? Where do we go when we dream? How could you recreate this state of mind in a robot?