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View Full Version : Hear no evil, speak no evil - and you'll never be invited to a party


Hazzle
13-08-2004, 03:50 PM
A discussion broke out on the Einstein thread as to who was more evil, Stalin or Hitler...and various other names such as Eichmann and Himmler came up. To avoid spam but let the discussion flourish...I created this thread...

So basically the topic of discussion is who's the most evil person in history? Reasons why would be good too...

I vote for Ducky...the reasons are obvious :p

AureaMediocritas
13-08-2004, 03:56 PM
The most evil man in history was , according to me , Felix Dzersinsky , head of
the organ of political terror of the late Soviet Revolution , the Tcheka ,
destroying entire villages , taking hostages , executing thousands of presumed
"counter-revolutionaries" , letting millions of people die out of famine ,
constructing the first concentration camps in Europe etc...

Flightfreak
13-08-2004, 04:26 PM
i dont know that mutch of historie, but what i do know is that stalin was more ivel than hitler.

frodo1511
13-08-2004, 04:50 PM
Eve- if she would've listened to God, and not eat the forbidden fruit, then no evil would've ever surfaced.

...until mods were born:)

Mandy
13-08-2004, 04:53 PM
Eve- if she would've listened to God, and not eat the forbidden fruit, then no evil would've ever surfaced.

...until mods were born:)

Eve. I curse her name whenever I feel a cramp.

Mistikle
13-08-2004, 05:14 PM
ohhh, were studyin this part of history in school atm
were doin the Cold War and stuff
i think Hitler was more evil...

Richard
13-08-2004, 05:26 PM
They're both assholes. But if I had to choose...

Hitler. All through my life (that meaning through history class) he has done nothing that amazes me that doesn't involve killing, I loathe the man. Ugly SOB too.

Spire
13-08-2004, 05:40 PM
Bill Gates. He is the zenith of evil.

acliff
13-08-2004, 06:07 PM
Bill Gates. He is the zenith of evil.

Despite all the millions that he gives to charity. and the fact that he has not (at least knowingly) killed another. What laws has he broken? Perhaps the odd copyright/theft law, but other than that?

It pisses me off that misguided people think that Bill Gates, who has actually helped computer technology improve, is the root of all evil. Compared to lets say, Caligula, nero, who murdered all of their families, Harold Shipman, the 'greatest' known serial killer with an estimated murder count of 300+.

Hitler and Stalin were both extremely evil. However they had reasons for killing them. The people who I consider most evil, are the people who kill for no reason at all. Kill for kill's sake. In that respect, at the moment, I'm going to say Harold Shipman, as he sticks out clear in my mind. Absolutely vile and despicable person.

hasselbrad
13-08-2004, 06:28 PM
I'm not sure you could get more evil than Hitler and Stalin. I'll give Stalin the nod because he made Hitler look like a rank amateur when it comes to killing.
Pol Pot and Idi Amin were pretty fucking bad too.

duckula
13-08-2004, 06:45 PM
Is evil just a bodycount?

DragonRat
13-08-2004, 06:48 PM
I think Hitler was more evil, because he believed that what he was doing was right and just. Stalin was just greedy and power-hungry. When one's ideals (however misguided they are) persuade one to mass genocide of countless peoples - not just Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles, and others - then you have a problem. Stalin just killed his fellow Russians. Of course, he might have disguised his intentions under the banner of Communism, but we all know he was a bumbling idiot in Communist ideals compared to Lenin and Trotsky. And Eichmann and Himmler - they were just as evil as Hitler, but I give Hitler the edge, because he had more power.

I'd also give Chairman Mao Tse-tung an honorable mention. No one says he's evil, because he did so much for the PRC, or that General Chiang Kai-shek was worse. I think those people miss the point: the Great Leap Forward was one of the worst industrialization projects ever, and the Cultural Revolution brought the entire country back at least another hundred years. And he did all of this to a country with a greater population than Germany or Russia. His cult of personality still stands today, whereas Stalin and Hitler have been seen as criminals against humanity. Mao didn't kill people himself, but he would never let anything stand in his way of his beliefs, and he took them to heart, just as blindly as the others.

Besides, Hitler's got the little tiny moustache. I'd be scared shitless of a man who had a little tiny moustache. You know he has some hidden genocidal agenda.

Spire
13-08-2004, 06:58 PM
Despite all the millions that he gives to charity. and the fact that he has not (at least knowingly) killed another. What laws has he broken? Perhaps the odd copyright/theft law, but other than that?

It pisses me off that misguided people think that Bill Gates, who has actually helped computer technology improve, is the root of all evil. Compared to lets say, Caligula, nero, who murdered all of their families, Harold Shipman, the 'greatest' known serial killer with an estimated murder count of 300+.

Hitler and Stalin were both extremely evil. However they had reasons for killing them. The people who I consider most evil, are the people who kill for no reason at all. Kill for kill's sake. In that respect, at the moment, I'm going to say Harold Shipman, as he sticks out clear in my mind. Absolutely vile and despicable person.

It's called sarcasm. It is your friend.

keira_lover
13-08-2004, 06:58 PM
I'd have to say Hitler was the worst. I learned a lot more about him and the things he did than I did Stalin (Am I the only one here that remembers Guernica). Don't get me wrong, I've heard some horrible things about Stalin too, but I'd have to say my vote goes to Hitler. I mean lets face it, did Stalin have the Hilter 'stache? (You know the one that screamed I am thine Fuhrer, you shall obey me and do everything that I say or I shall kill you) don't think so. Nothing commands more respect and power than the 'stache.

acliff
13-08-2004, 07:26 PM
It's called sarcasm. It is your friend.

Obviously you are no more than acquaintances and you gave a terrible first impression.

CFC
13-08-2004, 07:31 PM
I know it is not a person. But the Roman Catholic Church has done a lot of evil.

AureaMediocritas
13-08-2004, 07:39 PM
Hitler and Stalin were the leaders of their country , no one doubts that , and the terrible repression and persecution occured under their dictatorship.
They nevertheless did not plan them in every detail , no , they only gave some very vague orders as "eliminate the Jewish parasites" or "purge the Red Army" (Stalin chose the "targets" himself, nevertheless).
In fact , they strongly needed their fervent and highy-ranked collaborators in
order to put their disgusting plans into reality... Himmler and Eichmann , as far as the German side is concerned , are of course examples , but a more striking one is, I think , Reinhard Heydrich... It was himself who was responsible for the unification of the political police in 1934 , so basically he is the real founder of the "well-known" GeStaPo. In 1936 , he became the head of the Security Police and the Security Service until 1939, when he lead the RSHA (Reichssicherheitshauptamt).The RSHA was responsible for all official and secret police and security departments in Germany.
Reinhard was eventually instructed by his "big" (piggy) mate Göring to prepare
the "overall solution of the Jewish question in the German controlled European areas", which he worked on eagerly. (Fortunately,) He was shot by Czech
resistance fighters in 1942... (Unfortunately,) His final death in hospital consequently meant the execution of the whole male population of the Czech village "Lidice" (from 16 year old men on) as well as the "elimination" of 1331 people in Prag... Which appears very odious is as well his appearance; he was tall , slim , blue-eyed , blonde and muscular, so he perfectly corresponded to the germanic "Arier" ideal as well as his behaviour in private : he was a talented musician , extremely friendly with children and talkative... his attitude was the one of a completely "normal" father and husband.

hasselbrad
13-08-2004, 07:40 PM
Is evil just a bodycount?

It's a pretty good start. Especially when the bodycount gets over twenty million.

Sarah
13-08-2004, 08:07 PM
Hitler wasn't evil in my opinion, just very confused.

Hazzle
13-08-2004, 08:23 PM
Hitler and Stalin were both extremely evil. However they had reasons for killing them. The people who I consider most evil, are the people who kill for no reason at all. Kill for kill's sake. In that respect, at the moment, I'm going to say Harold Shipman, as he sticks out clear in my mind. Absolutely vile and despicable person.

On a serious note, I agree that people who kill for killing's sake are the worst...but I'm unconvinced Stalin DID have his reasons, unless we count paranoia and keeping hold of power.

Because by that token Shipman only killed out of greed...

Is evil just a bodycount?

Evil has nothing to do with killing...I think some people can do evil acts without killing, and the sheer number if one's victims does not make one evil...

I think Hitler was more evil, because he believed that what he was doing was right and just. Stalin was just greedy and power-hungry. When one's ideals (however misguided they are) persuade one to mass genocide of countless peoples - not just Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals, Poles, and others - then you have a problem.

A problem, sure...but more evil? More twisted in the head, sure...but for me being misguided and insane is an EXCUSE for being evil...being evil for me is doing something REALLY evil when you KNOW it's evil...for me Hitler doesn't even come close to evil BECAUSE he did what he thought was right...and every single one of us has done that...would I kill people for my ideals? Damn straight...are my ideals as twisted as Hitlers? Who's to say? I personally find Hitler to be a twisted insane individual driven by all sorts of factors...but "evil" is not a word I associate with him, having read about his life and convinced myself he did what he thought was right. Sick and twisted, yes...but evil...no.

I know it is not a person. But the Roman Catholic Church has done a lot of evil.

I can agree with that one.
his attitude was the one of a completely "normal" father and husband.

Aye...Heydrich was one sick bastard...and like many Nazis DID think what he was doing was entirely "normal". That's why Himmler and Eichmann stand out...both fucking BLATANTLY knew that massacring the jews was wrong, but they did it anyway...with ruthless efficiency.

It's a pretty good start. Especially when the bodycount gets over twenty million.

Bollocks...Shipman is more evil, for my money, than Hitler...and he killed far less people...

Hitler wasn't evil in my opinion, just very confused.

What she said...I always knew Sarah was smart;)

AureaMediocritas
13-08-2004, 08:26 PM
And 80 million and a half of Germans,all of a sudden, became "confused" as well.

Hazzle
13-08-2004, 08:50 PM
And 80 million and a half of Germans,all of a sudden, became "confused" as well.

Fear and propoganda are powerful tools :D

Oh...and it's a common misconception that most Germans supported the systematic execution of the jews...MOST of Germany was opposed to the more extreme anti-semitism...they just blamed the jews for the breakdown of the economy...much as a chunk of Britain blames assylum seekers for everything, and some people in the US seem to be blaming muslims for everything...scapegoats are a popular thing.

AureaMediocritas
13-08-2004, 08:55 PM
Of course... I wasn' t that serious anyway... it is just their stupid barbarian
nationalism that was somehow annoying (and frightening :icon_err: ) in my
opinion.

Hazzle
13-08-2004, 09:02 PM
You make a fine point...damned barbarian scum...wait...Anglo...Saxon...no no we LOVE the barbarians ;)

Which incidentally does make the English dislike of the Germans most ironic...but that's not the topic :D WWIII it isn't.

AureaMediocritas
13-08-2004, 09:16 PM
And which explains why the French prefer to call you Anglo-Saxons and not
simply English , Britons etc.( Anglo-Saxons equals not "Anglais" or "Britanniques")
I especially like these subtle hints in their news :) .

duckula
13-08-2004, 09:38 PM
I know it is not a person. But the Roman Catholic Church has done a lot of evil.

They've done alot of good aswell, what of it?

Hazzle
13-08-2004, 10:20 PM
They've done alot of good aswell, what of it?

So did Hitler...what of it? :D

duckula
13-08-2004, 10:56 PM
It's all a matter of degrees then isn't it? The Church is merely a tool of some considerable power, it can be used for good or ill by humans.

Hazzle
13-08-2004, 10:59 PM
Aye...religion generally is like that...a tool to be manipulated by human beings.

Days_of_Flesh
15-08-2004, 02:21 AM
Eve?

I've heard that Adam was more to blame, seein' as how he was responsible for Eve's well-being.

Hitler?

Yeah. Final Soultion aside, what other world leader has pulled a country from the ashes into a world power as quickly?

The RC Church?

If religious people--leaders, especially--followed their doctrines the way the tell others to, the world would be a better place. Save for the Koran verse that says to kill, slay idolators.

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 12:06 PM
Eve?

I've heard that Adam was more to blame, seein' as how he was responsible for Eve's well-being.

Bollocks...how was he responsible for her? Unless you're arguing women are nothing more than appendages to men...I for one think women have their own minds...and if Eve was tempted that showed her weakness, not Adam's :p

Hitler?

Yeah. Final Soultion aside, what other world leader has pulled a country from the ashes into a world power as quickly?

Man's one of the world's best ever leaders...it's a shame people can't say that without being seen as Nazis. Hitler's economic policy followed Roosevelt's in the states.

The RC Church?

If religious people--leaders, especially--followed their doctrines the way the tell others to, the world would be a better place. Save for the Koran verse that says to kill, slay idolators.

Religious leaders are the ones who twist the scriptures and cause the problems...organised religion is BAD.

Liam
15-08-2004, 12:11 PM
Yeah. Final Soultion aside, what other world leader has pulled a country from the ashes into a world power as quickly?



Josef Stalin. Not as quick as Hitler, but he had a hell of a lot more work to do...and he did it while he murdered most of the people who were instructed to make it happen.

I remember a thread like this on the old KKW where everyone argued with myself and duckula until they were blue in the face. Be fun to start it again.

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 12:23 PM
Josef Stalin. Not as quick as Hitler, but he had a hell of a lot more work to do...and he did it while he murdered most of the people who were instructed to make it happen.

I remember a thread like this on the old KKW where everyone argued with myself and duckula until they were blue in the face. Be fun to start it again.

Stalin was a legend...I hate it when people just see the word "dictator" and get all antsy...fuck me some of the world's best leaders have been dictators...I like dictatorship as a form of government...think it's far better than democracy, given the sheer idiocy of most people out there.

Oh yes, and I agree Liam...let the war begin :D...c'mon people...stir it up :p

Liam
15-08-2004, 01:10 PM
Remember the chap who wanted to argue with me on the effectiveness of the P-39?

He never came back. Harr.

Snoug
15-08-2004, 01:37 PM
I dont like labeling one man such as hitler to be evil. I keep hearing how he is horrible and stuff. But it was not just him but everyone who followed him as well. Like there trying to take the blame off the other million people that followed his "rules"

He is one man. As far as im concerned everyone who worked for him is just as guilty as he is.

AureaMediocritas
15-08-2004, 07:06 PM
That is exactly what I believe to be true as well : if Hitler or Stalin or any
dictator whosoever didn't have their "executioners" , they wouldn't obviously harm anyone... So, the everyday adherents of the regime , even if they only
have a very low position in the hierarchy , are at least as evil as the "big celebrities" known in history : just think of a supervisor of a concentration camp, a political officer judging subjectively thousands of presumed "enemies",a commander in the "SS-" or "SMERSH-" commandos literaly hunting ethnically "unworthy" people , partisans (resistants), "enemies of the people" , deserters and so on...
Of course , after the fall of such regimes , the concerned people either do not
remember anything or they just do not admit having been involved in the
(rather obvious) activities under the regime in question , which clearly shows
their opportunism. In fact, a majority of the most fanatic adherents act in a terrible way to stress their adherence to the regime without being actually
convinced of the ideology it stands for; so their fear as to their "faked"
enthousiasm being possibly revealed pushes them to prove real adherence by
"excessive" enthousiasm.

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 07:22 PM
The Germans and Russians at the time of Hitler and Stalin were no different to you or I...merely showing the capacity for sheer evil within each and every one of us. The scapegoat culture that underlied both underlies today's society too...we persecute people but differently...instead of killing them we just have prejudices...assylum seekers...islamic people...

AureaMediocritas
15-08-2004, 07:37 PM
Well , I tried to avoid to generalise in the way that I was somehow careful not
to refer to the most inferior members of the hierarchy. All I was (or thought to
be) talking about was the attitude of adherents who had not a considerable
amount of power but who basically gave the orders on the "low" scale , the
scale concerning the "immediate" reality (officers , commanders... but not highly-ranked ones).
Obviously , the soldiers for example -people like you and me as you said- had to
obey ; you do not really have much a choice serving under a dictatorial regime.
They basically can't be blamed for anything except perhaps deliberately cruel
and unnecessary actions (not formally approved by the superiors, but largely
tolerated) occuring while they are doing their task.
Sorry if I didn't express myself correctly...
:banghead:

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 07:40 PM
Well , I tried to avoid to generalise in the way that I was somehow careful not
to refer to the most inferior members of the hierarchy. All I was (or thought to
be) talking about was the attitude of adherents who had not a considerable
amount of power but who basically gave the orders on the "low" scale , the
scale concerning the "immediate" reality (officers , commanders... but not highly-ranked ones).
Obviously , the soldiers for example -people like you and me as you said- had to
obey ; you do not really have much a choice serving under a dictatorial regime.
They basically can't be blamed for anything except perhaps deliberately cruel
and unnecessary actions (not formally approved by the superiors, but largely
tolerated) occuring while they are doing their task.
Sorry if I didn't express myself correctly...
:banghead:

I wasn't actually disagreeing with you, I was playing off of it;) Didn't mean to make it sound like a criticism of your argument...my bad.

Days_of_Flesh
15-08-2004, 07:53 PM
Bollocks...how was he responsible for her? Unless you're arguing women are nothing more than appendages to men...I for one think women have their own minds...and if Eve was tempted that showed her weakness, not Adam's :p

Uh... not women bashing here. Just giving one interpretation.

Check it:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Although the Greek word here anthropos can mean man or woman...

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 08:05 PM
Uh... not women bashing here. Just giving one interpretation.

Check it:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Although the Greek word here anthropos can mean man or woman...

Adam sinned because Eve tempted him...both were tempted independently...but Eve was the temptress of Adam so she sinned twice ;) Thus proving women are the ultimate evil <ducks>

Days_of_Flesh
15-08-2004, 08:07 PM
Was there a reason Satan got to Adam through Eve instead of tempting him directly?

Interesting...

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 08:18 PM
Was there a reason Satan got to Adam through Eve instead of tempting him directly?

Interesting...

Cos we're weak when it comes to women...foul foul temptresses...mmmmm...flesh...:p

Men aren't evil...we're just weak :D

Days_of_Flesh
15-08-2004, 08:24 PM
I like St. Augustine's words, speaking of his, er, male parts...

<paraphrase> Why, O God, did you give us such loathsome toys?

Hazzle
15-08-2004, 08:29 PM
I like St. Augustine's words, speaking of his, er, male parts...

<paraphrase> Why, O God, did you give us such loathsome toys?

Stick to good and evil...the topic at hand...thanks:) If you wish to discuss men v women...other than in the context of evil...start a new thread :D

ON topic...I find people who spam to be evil...that does make me evil, but when did I ever deny that? :p

frodo1511
15-08-2004, 08:30 PM
I think that girl scout's are the pinnacle of evil!
They make me spend bunches of money every year for their damn cookies!