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barrington
22-11-2006, 01:08 PM
Time for a bit of a ruck on a cold Wednesday afternoon.

Recently while nattering to an otherwise intelligent woman in the pub I discovoured she firmly believed in 'Intelligent Design', yet was unable to explain why. Other than expressing the vague sentiment that ID was more 'comfortable'.

Having never previously given the matter much thought, dismissing it as a whimsical indulgence such as astrology. I've now become curious on the motivations behind the belief. [If in understand the idea properly it is simply Genesis with god crossed out and Designer chalked in.]

For many people ID simply seems a curious compromise between (desired) Myth and modernity. The lay of Ymir (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ymir) updated to the 20th century.

But what of its more active proponents? Most clearly have the faculties to understand evolution, yet choose to reject it in favour of hokum. If it is because evolution specifically threatens their creationalist understanding of the universe surely many other bulwarks of scientific understanding are equally damaging. Plate tectonics and Cosmology refute the 5,000 year old anthropocentric universe more surely than evolution. Yet few pulpits preach against the godless geologists.

Indeed, the only other area of science the 'creationalist' lobby seem strident about confronting is that of climate change. Here I am at a loss to explain heir motivation, other than wonder if it is at the bequest of corporations such as Exxon who provide much of the funding for groups such as the Discovery Institute (http://www.discovery.org/). Though to have been so readily taken up by its lay believers surely indicates a deeper discontent with modern science. It seems as if the movements followers find it insulting that scientists prophesies negative consequences to their actions. Perhaps showing an instinctive disgust that secularism has taken the role of seer and doom-sayer?

I would greatly appreciate reading your opinions on this matter.

Mandy
22-11-2006, 03:51 PM
I've never understood the belief in ID. To me, it's just a poorly written and made up religion. Mainly because it doesn't point out a creator, just some really smart guy that said "Hey, maybe this is what's going on..."

At least that's how I've always known it, maybe I'm not up to date on all the facts. I mean, wasn't it based off one of the books in the bible? And they're not allowed to even teach it in schools.

runangl
22-11-2006, 05:50 PM
I'm not going to lie and say i read your entire post baz... i got bored a paragraph or two from the end.

but i just wanted to let you know, most of the christians i know don't believe in "ID" as it's put out: ie the 6,000 year world crap. one of my teachers is actually an evolutionary creationist or something like that. and I'm not talking about micro-evolution or any sissy adaptation crap, I'm talking about macro-evolution. she's amazing. she's actually a geologist and has gone on several digs all over the world, looking at ice cores and all that wonderful stuff. anyways... here's a brief list of topics we've discussed or are going to discuss in the class:

Quantum fluctuation. Inflation. Expansion. Strong nuclear interaction. Particle-antiparticle annihilation. Deuterium and helium production. Density perturbations. Recombination. Blackbody radiation. Local contraction. Cluster formation. Reionization? Violent relaxation. Virialization. Biased galaxy formation? Turbulent fragmentation. Contraction. Ionization. Compression. Opaque hydrogen. Massive star formation. Deuterium ignition. Hydrogen fusion. Hydrogen depletion. Core contraction. Envelope expansion. Helium fusion. Carbon, oxygen, and silicon fusion. Iron production. Implosion. Supernova explosion. Metals injection. Star formation. Supernova explosions. Star formation. Condensation. Planetesimal accretion. Planetary differentiation. Crust solidification. Volatile gas expulsion. Water condensation. Water dissociation. Ozone production. Ultraviolet absorption. Photosynthetic unicellular organisms. Oxidation. Mutation. Natural selection and evolution. Respiration. Cell differentiation. Sexual reproduction. Fossilization. Land exploration. Dinosaur extinction. Mammal expansion. Glaciation. Homo sapiens manifestation. Animal domestication. Food surplus production. Civilization! Innovation. Exploration. Religion. Warring nations. Empire creation and destruction. Exploration. Colonization. Taxation without representation. Revolution. Constitution. Election. Expansion. Industrialization. Rebellion. Emancipation Proclamation. Invention. Mass production. Urbanization. Immigration. World conflagration. League of Nations. Suffrage extension. Depression. World conflagration. Fission explosions. United Nations. Space exploration. Assassinations. Lunar excursions. Resignation. Computerization. World Trade Organization. Terrorism. Internet expansion. Reunification. Dissolution. World-Wide Web creation. Composition. Extrapolation?

okay maybe not so much that middle to end stuff. but pretty much all those wonderful sciency terms.

an interesting note to leave you all on: I'm not sure if you've heard this at all, its not really "new" news. a scientist has, under special circumstances, been able to create "live" matter out of "unliving" matter. food for thought?

oh, and this chick that's teaching this class... is still a christian. I'm not exactly sure how it works still, but she is.



edit// mandy: they've been fighting all over the states to require teachers to teach "both" ID and evolution. which is ridiculous, b/c that really makes students think that its an either/or situation when it's really a both/and situation in my head. i don't understand why people think God MUST exist in some completely miraculous world that we can't understand. why couldn't God have worked through evolution? there is a spectrum of "origins" theory, including the idea that... there never was a "start" things have always been.

deviljet88
23-11-2006, 07:04 AM
I don't think this is the exact same thing but the only time I've heard of 'Intelligent Design' at school (Catholic) was when the RE teacher began ranting on about how there were so many wonderful patterns in the world that surely it had to be a most intelligent designer who made it... but according to this thread, religion and ID don't go hand in hand like that? *goes to look up wiki*

barrington
23-11-2006, 04:27 PM
I knew this thread was a waste of time.

runangl
23-11-2006, 04:47 PM
if you had brought up something like... intelligent design of breasts... maybe there'd be a good showing =D hahah

michael22
24-11-2006, 03:11 AM
recently running out of reading material i have started to read various cultures relegious texts. there is some good stuff in all(almost) of them. though there is also a lot of crap to sift through.

ranging from norse and celtic, morman bible, budhist, Jhova text, satanist, wiccan, scientology(urrgggghhh Dune would have founded a better religeon for insert deity here__'s sake), zombie religeon and the books of pope awesome and Calvin the magnificent

now there are sooooooo many similarities when you compare the major religeons. I find if their is not to many dogmatic restrictions in a religeon and follow a good moral by all means follow your religeon.
now if only we could stop people making fun of scotland
here is one of the better religous arguments http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm9AK0fLAsE

Mandy
28-11-2006, 05:56 PM
I knew this thread was a waste of time.

Intelligence + KKW = omgwtf?

seventhson
01-12-2006, 03:24 AM
I knew this thread was a waste of time.

I am a simple man who understands that there is much that I do not understand and that is what it is. Faith is not ignorance,but it cannot be measured, plotted or graphed. Maybe God created the universe with evolution as part of His design because He knew you & me wouldn't/couldn't get it and He is laughing, to Himself, because He knew it would lead to this very thread.
I don't know much, but I know God has a sense of humor... what do I know. do you?

(-: Peace :-)