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Hazzle
26-05-2006, 08:11 AM
Holy Christ on a bike Bazman!

We have had the shittest intake of newbies yet. No, come on, really, which one of you thinks we've gotten a GREAT bunch of newbies recently.

Barring Once Dreaded I've not been impressed by any of them. To be fair, there are a lot of other "ok" newbies who don't annoy the pissfuck out of me. Swordsman's ok and there are others I can stand. But Michael22 is so unfunny he even admitted it in IRC. And he's not the only one.

I've seen this done on VBulletin sites before and I think we need to do this on KKW. You can make the main forums all private, visible only once you log in. Therefore we cut down on lurkers. Secondly, in order to actually register to become a member, you need to apply, or be recommended by an existing member. The only people who can create new users on this other site I go to are the admins (but I'd guess that you could set the permissions to allow mods to do it too).

I propose we do the same. That way we cut down on unfunny people or people who are one-dimensional (ie their sole interest is an unhealthy obsession with Keira). Of course we WANT Keira fans, but well-rounded Keira fans would be best, no? People with an interest in other things too. Humour isn't necessary, but being interesting should be!

All that would need to be done is the main boards be made private, and another (public) forum be set up for applications. We could draft up an application form with several questions, to try and build up a profile of the potential member, their interests, and whether they'll be interesting to have around. We post that up as a sticky thread and lock it. Then every applicant would start a new thread to apply and answer the questions. Existing members are then free to probe further, ask any other questions they want...maybe ask the applicant to tell a joke. Or flesh out an answer to the application form.

The final step would be a public poll with everyone voting "in" or "out". The poll would be open for a fixed amount of time, and every poll would stay open the same amount of time (out of fairness). A simple majority should suffice either way, but if we need to, we can fine-tune that as we go along. Maybe have a minimum voter turnout before the result is "valid". I dunno, it's an idea.

That's my idea to improve KKW. But I actually want to know what everyone else thinks...so I'm putting this to a simple poll. Applications: Yes or No?

Foeni
26-05-2006, 08:58 AM
Isn't this supposed to be a fansite? Most the OMFG-Keira-is-so-hot-how-can-I-meet-her fans don't stick around. I think that a lot of regulars started out as lurkers and joined as fans.
I suppose this idea would go against the idea of KKW.

Hazzle
26-05-2006, 09:07 AM
Isn't this supposed to be a fansite? Most the OMFG-Keira-is-so-hot-how-can-I-meet-her fans don't stick around. I think that a lot of regulars started out as lurkers and joined as fans.
I suppose this idea would go against the idea of KKW.

A fansite, yes, but I'm not saying we shouldn't admit fans. The website I'm talking about (the one I got the idea from) is for Arsenal fans, and everyone who gets through the applications IS an Arsenal fan first and foremost.

However they have a personality beyond that. The idea of this is to ensure that our new members have the same. If they have other interests, of any kind, or at least can be coherent in what they have to say, they have a place here.

My point is do we really want people who:

a) Always use textspeak
b) Have nothing interesting to say

Those are the only two types of people I'd want kept out. Anyone else would be welcome. The only point of an application would be to test if someone would have something to contribute. After all, every user who uses the site puts a strain on the resources that Baz pays for, let's not forget. Why not make sure that they have something to put INTO KKW?

It's just an idea. If you're totally against the idea, cool, but if you've got suggestions, tweaks, whatever, to improve it as a concept...offer them up!

kingdumbass
26-05-2006, 09:09 AM
So, on a scale from one to ten (ten being REALLY bad), how annoying am I as a newbie?

Hazzle
26-05-2006, 09:16 AM
So, on a scale from one to ten (ten being REALLY bad), how annoying am I as a newbie?

Start a poll and find out!

Mandy
26-05-2006, 09:21 AM
No, but I think it needs applications for new moderators.

Ranman
26-05-2006, 09:57 AM
In my opinion No, But if they fail to follow the rules The bosses
need to take action against them right away.

Hazzle
26-05-2006, 11:14 AM
No, but I think it needs applications for new moderators.

Oh there's no doubt about that.

In my opinion No, But if they fail to follow the rules The bosses
need to take action against them right away.

The problem is some people follow the rules but are just plain boring. And will never become interesting as they were born without a personality.

A lot of people including me lurked for while before i joined to get an idea who was in charge, who were the regulars, and just get an general idea of the forums swing in common. A lot of people join for KK but also join for all the amusing threads that can be found in the Wavefront Community.

Well, you could have the forums be visible (ie allow lurking) but still require applications for members. The problem is a lot of people join for the amusing threads and then proceed to be unfunny bastards. And thus ruin the amusing threads. The cunts.

Applications for special positions would be cool imo. Elections for Spammer of the year…

I don't REALLY think that's a competition...

barrington
26-05-2006, 01:25 PM
I really don't think we need to implement more measures to make the forums even less accessible. We want to capitalise on our traffic by making it as easy as possible for new forums members to sign up. The signal-to-noise ratio is high on most internet forums, but it's quite self-regulating in that those with nothing to offer get nothing in return and eventually leave. What remains is a slowly growing base of old-timers that are interesting.

The forums are a secondary service to the website itself, a bonus feature, designed to open up communication (and if desired, trivial banter) about Keira Knightley. Let's not be ignorant of the focus - General Discussions is not what the forums are about, although it's easy to forget sometimes. The last thing we need is a system whereby newbies must prove their worth as either a hardcore Keira Knightley fan (are they not all equally worthy of admiring her?) or sit some devious range of psychometric humour tests to pass a minimum entertainment quotient for the rest of the bored senior members.

In short: Not Gonna Happen. An interesting idea, and I'd like to see it discussed further. Sometimes we get gems in the shit.

deviljet88
26-05-2006, 02:17 PM
And here I was thinking you were enjoying yourself calling all the newbies you didn't like 'fuckwits' :P I absolutely detest the idea of attempting to filter members so we only get a comedy club occuring. If you seriously detest some of these people, just put them onto the ignore list, or scroll faster with your mouse wheel, past their posts.

You could also try nuturing them but meh, flame them if it pleases you.

Hazzle
26-05-2006, 03:13 PM
Incidentally the other forum I got the idea from is an offshoot from a Blog, which is the main focus of the site. So I thought that the parallel existed. Especially as, on that same site, the core focus is a football club (much like the core focus here is Keira). The application process was, in my mind, supposed to be Keira-focussed. People who have something interesting to say will have something interesting to say on the topic of Keira too. Just an idea.

I must take issue with one thing; a lot of you are seeing this as a way to limit or restrict membership. It's not really, all it does is ensure that when someone is a member, because it's not as simple as filling out a little form, they actually post.

I mean I got the idea from a site that's been running about as long as KKW and yet whenever I visit their forums, they're full of fresh posts to read. Ironically by "limiting" membership they actually encouraged a lot more activity from those who are members, and created an "allure" to being a member.

This particular version of the forums goes back to 04/2003. That other site goes back to 10/2002. That's an extra 6 months. They have had just under 600 members in total (since it began) we've had around 2000. Our top poster has 2500 posts, theirs has 22,000 posts. In fact several members have over 10,000 posts. Says a lot imho.

It's like nightclubs that are highly exclusive; how come they're more popular and more profitable despite being so selective? Because ironically less IS more. Forgetting the fact that the quality of posts would improve, you'd actually see a hell of a lot more activity from those who're here.

I absolutely detest the idea of attempting to filter members so we only get a comedy club occuring.

It's not purely about being funny. Being interesting would help. For example, Dragonrat's never been a particularly funny member, but he always has interesting things to post.

As I said above, I honestly think that this would encourage people to ACTUALLY post. A perfect metaphor. When people sign up to join a Gym, they tend to exercise more, to get the full value of their money. When something is hard to come by, you value it more. Easy come, easy go.

If you seriously detest some of these people, just put them onto the ignore list, or scroll faster with your mouse wheel, past their posts.

What posts? That's the problem. There's so little activity here that spamming is the only way to actually get some activity. And when I'm saying spam is bad, you know something's wrong.

barrington
26-05-2006, 03:31 PM
Yes, it's a low-value product.
I dont think Selection has a future. Maybe if we had tens of thousands of members. Now now.

Mandy
26-05-2006, 03:34 PM
Yeah I think it's stupid...plus...I get a kick out of making fun of n00bs.

Hazzle
26-05-2006, 03:35 PM
Yes, it's a low-value product.

I actually took that part out as I thought you might take offence at it. I didn't mean it as an attack, at all, it's genuinely a theory I had about making the place better. You may question my motives, but I'm being upfront with them; I want this place to be more interesting.

The more interesting/active it is, the more interesting it is for me to read. I'd actually prefer to read than post, being entirely honest, and looking at how high my post count is, that says a lot about what there is to read. Again, I'm not being critical of any particular individual at this point, just a distinct lack of content.

Also, I ironically think it if was made more exclusive to join, people, being naturally curious, will wonder what we have that the other Keira sites don't. From a marketting perspective I expect we'll end up with more members not less. Sounds odd, but there is a logic to it.

But hey, as Mandy said, I actually win either way. I enjoy making fun of the newbies, so even though you've said no, I'm a happy man. I just honestly think this idea has a lot more potential than is being explored. I'm glad that at least Baz has said it's "interesting" and worthy of being discussed further because I think there's merit to it. But meh, what do I know?

barrington
26-05-2006, 04:39 PM
Well-rounded communities grow because existing members attract The Right Sort Of People with high calibre posting. If we want more people 'like us' then it behoves us to post in a manner that will lure them in, not simply deny access to the opposite. KKW needs to increase its own demand, not restrict its supply to generate a false economy of value. Your business sense is the wrong way round.

Hazzle
26-05-2006, 07:08 PM
Well-rounded communities grow because existing members attract The Right Sort Of People with high calibre posting. If we want more people 'like us' then it behoves us to post in a manner that will lure them in, not simply deny access to the opposite. KKW needs to increase its own demand, not restrict its supply to generate a false economy of value. Your business sense is the wrong way round.

With all due respect, I think that's a "bury your head in the sand" approach. We've been posting with "high calibre posting" in my view for a long time, and I'm not sure it's actually succeeded in drawing the "Right Sort of People."

Also I think you're misunderstanding my point, or perhaps I'm not presenting it clearly enough. Demand increases as supply diminishes. This is a fact. This is why when a US Oil refinery blew up earlier in the week the oil price shot through the roof. The demand for oil is actually a pretty steady figure, what causes price fluctuations is the supply. It's not like there are suddenly more cars on the road, or more requirement for oil for industrial purposes.

A better example is gold. A forum, like this, isn't a necessity (like oil) it's a premium good (like Gold). Why has the price of gold skyrocketted to a 26 year high? Because demand has rocketted, I'm sure you'll say. However, the reason why demand has rocketted is because gold has a "premium" allure. The scarcity of it makes it more fashionable. This is, to bring back an earlier point, why exclusive nightclubs gain a massive reputation to the point where everyone wants to be seen at "X" nightclub.

That's what we need to create at KKW. You believe posting will do it. It may actually get people to sign up, I can't disagree with that, if people read stuff they find interesting, they may sign up. But why sign up if all they want to do is read? How many people have we had sign up who NEVER post? I know you say it's a "false economy" and to be honest, it is. But it's the EXACT same thing with, for example, Copyright.

Music, technically, has no financial value. If it didn't have copyright attached, it would be free. Don't believe me? Witness P2P music sharing and the spread of free music. Copyright is an artificial construct to create a false supply shortage, and therefore ensure demand. It's the EXACT same thing here. As YOU pointed out, being a member of an internet forum has no intrinsic value. You need to create that value by creating an "exclusive" feel.

At the moment joining KKW is no different to joining any other Keira Knightley website. People can read the interesting content we post to their heart's content. Why sign up? To contribute? Well if that were the case, we wouldn't have so many accounts with "0" on their post count. The crucial thing is what DO we offer that other KK sites don't? I think it comes down to the personalities we offer, the fact that you should encounter interesting people on this site. If that's our USP (Unique Selling Point) why not strengthen it by ensuring we have more interesting people?

It's just an idea, and I accept you want more members, regardless of the quality, and I understand that point of view. And I understand, as Pieter pointed out, that from a business perspective that generates more income. But my "supply-demand" logic isn't wrong, and for you to say otherwise is unfair. It's fair enough if you choose to go a different direction for DIFFERENT business reasons, but my business model is also valid.

Kriv
26-05-2006, 10:30 PM
HAzzel, it sounds like your a fascist. So people are unfunny big wooop, who cares let people be.

deviljet88
27-05-2006, 02:24 AM
Would you join a highly notorious, all out fun brawl fansite forum, if it was say about... some foreign actor who you have never heard of or seen? The stigma attached to an actress fansite is everyone's going to be a gibbering fanatic, and try as hard as you might, there'll be a load of people who would rather risk their sanity at the many thousands, millions of other forums out there.

Then, for those who risk it, you put in a selection process, which obviously will take time and effort. They post one post, filling in your stock questions. And then forget all about KKW. How many newcomers have we had that just post one post in the newcomers and entirely forget about the forum thereafter? We already have a problem of people joining, posting in the newcomers and maybe being enticed by General Discussion and other topics, maybe not. There's already a low ratio of members staying, with the enticement. Now you want to take away General Discussion etc and just leave a Newcomers type area? Real enticing? Hm.

barrington
27-05-2006, 04:07 AM
The problem is enticing people beyond the Registration page. If they can't seen what's to be gained, they won't register. I disagree with what you're saying. I acknowledge your references to some vague A-Level or BSc business course, but, in the context of a fansite, I am adamant that you are not correct. If I was to select General Discussions as member-only for a week, would we see the number of posts increases? (Rhetoric) Probably, but at what cost to our attractiveness as a lurker-friendly forum. (Let's not forget that we have a ratio of about 100:10 in lurkers:registered. They might sign up, but would they post?

I might go so far as to say that I might give this a try for a week or so. The logic is quite sound, and chances are we wouldn't actually lose out. At least not in GD. Present me a sound case in your next post and I'll respect it enough to at least try it out in the most eclectic forum.

You might be a cunt, but I'll still attach some value to what you say. We've been through a lot.

Hazzle
28-05-2006, 02:14 AM
HAzzel, it sounds like your a fascist. So people are unfunny big wooop, who cares let people be.

It's Hazzle. And it's about trying to ensure that the place is interesting, as well as trying to attract more people. The two go hand in hand.

The stigma attached to an actress fansite is everyone's going to be a gibbering fanatic, and try as hard as you might, there'll be a load of people who would rather risk their sanity at the many thousands, millions of other forums out there.

I'm not saying we don't want to attract Keira fans, the point is that we can actually avoid that stigma by saying we don't cater to the "gibbering fanatic" but cater to a higher calibre, higher class clientele. I'm a Keira fan, I make no bones about that, less than I once was, perhaps, but I was never a "gibbering fanatic". Most people who've joined and stayed aren't either.

Then, for those who risk it, you put in a selection process, which obviously will take time and effort. They post one post, filling in your stock questions. And then forget all about KKW. How many newcomers have we had that just post one post in the newcomers and entirely forget about the forum thereafter?

That's my point exactly. If you put in a job application, do you forget all about it? If it takes you time to fill in an application, you've put in effort, so you'll take it seriously. By contrast if all you've done is mass-mail your CV to people, how many of those "applications" do you follow up? I can almost guarantee you that the effort needed to apply will ensure people come back, there's no point in answering the questions otherwise. I see your logic, and in a vacuum it would work, but when you apply it to human emotions and reasoning, it doesn't.

The problem is enticing people beyond the Registration page. If they can't see what's to be gained, they won't register. I disagree with what you're saying.

I can see that, which is why I'm not necessarily advocating making them entirely invisible to non-members. However I've actually come up with a viable solution that keeps them private and nonetheless ensures that people see what's there. How about an "Interesting Excerpts" bit on the front page, where you select a small handful of interesting threads, post the thread title and some enticing passages from it, and those go up? That way people see what's offer but it's just a taster, like free trials on software or services. I'll even volunteer to scout the forums and come up with the excerpts for you. If you can't find anyone else, that is.

I acknowledge your references to some vague A-Level or BSc business course, but, in the context of a fansite, I am adamant that you are not correct.

I've extrapolated this from another fansite. Albeit a different commodity, in that it's for fans of a particular football club, but would you say Arsenal Football Club is more well-known than Keira Knightley? I wonder which has the higher Google rank, I'd guess Keira. It's just an idea I got from another forum that worked well. Don't forget, an application process helps you get to know the person better too. We do have this problem of people joining, posting, and going away. This is largely as noone gets to know them and they don't get welcomed into the "core". You know it, I know it, it's hard to become part of "the gang". I think this would help as you'd know more about the person.

If I was to select General Discussions as member-only for a week, would we see the number of posts increases? (Rhetoric) Probably, but at what cost to our attractiveness as a lurker-friendly forum. (Let's not forget that we have a ratio of about 100:10 in lurkers:registered. They might sign up, but would they post?

I think we would. As I've said, I've based this on the success of another site. I've listed some stats above. Don't forget, we'd also avoid the potential for trolls and other problems. We haven't had these recently, but remember Nearoka? When POTC2 comes out I fancy we'll end up with a LOT of trolls. I think there's more incentive to post if you've had to apply to join. You figure that if you've put in some effort, may as well get some joy out of it. Plus they'll feel like they know us too, because if we ask certain questions, or post our responses to their applications, they get an idea of what we're like too. It's a solid "getting to know you" method.

If you want to preserve the lurker-friendly idea, why not keep the forums open to view but tie the membership to application? The fact is, we have the sexuality/relationships forum member-only and I don't think that's hurt us at all.

I might go so far as to say that I might give this a try for a week or so. The logic is quite sound, and chances are we wouldn't actually lose out. At least not in GD. Present me a sound case in your next post and I'll respect it enough to at least try it out in the most eclectic forum.

I'm not asking you to do that, necessarily, if you think there's a case to be made, try it, if not, tell me to fuck off. I respect you enough to say that at the end of the day, it's your site, you've presented a logical case why you oppose the idea, so I'm cool with that. I'd just be remiss if I didn't offer a suggestion I thought would improve KKW.

You might be a cunt, but I'll still attach some value to what you say. We've been through a lot.

No might about it. I am. But you're right, we've been through a lot and right now, I honestly want what's best for KKW. Hence my not posting last night when off my face on red wine. You know what I'm like when I post drunk!

deviljet88
28-05-2006, 02:55 AM
You know it, I know it, it's hard to become part of "the gang". I think this would help as you'd know more about the person.

Building on that idea since I know you'll somehow have the time to throw back anything I throw at you, would a cast of KKW page help welcome members? Like have some brief notes about different members who post often. I know there's a few newbies who think the site's just filled with psychos, pedos, stalkers, drunkards, without getting the full joke, the persona that's been set up by members over the year(s). I just think that if they can adapt to some our oddities, they'd become part of 'the gang' quicker.

Mandy
28-05-2006, 03:09 AM
THAT's a good idea. We need a yearbook. I'll even do it. Or something.

Hazzle
28-05-2006, 03:10 AM
Building on that idea since I know you'll somehow have the time to throw back anything I throw at you, would a cast of KKW page help welcome members? Like have some brief notes about different members who post often. I know there's a few newbies who think the site's just filled with psychos, pedos, stalkers, drunkards, without getting the full joke, the persona that's been set up by members over the year(s). I just think that if they can adapt to some our oddities, they'd become part of 'the gang' quicker.

Oh, I agree, but I don't think that that's necessarily the way to do it. I think something like this (http://www.kkwavefront.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2523) is great. In fact, it's THAT sort of thing I thought would be great on applications. The site I got the idea from asks the following Questions, you see what you think:

Simply copy and paste the questions below into a NEW thread.

e.g Newcunt application.

Also, make sure you leave an email address so we can let you know if your application has been successful or not. Expect feedback on your application. Don't be too offended if someone calls you a cunt.

When you make your application a poll will be added and existing members will vote 'in' or 'out'. You need to get 60% of the vote to get in. Polls close after 3 days.

Please note that we're not looking for lurkers. You must contribute to the board or your account may be removed.

Ta.

Quote:

Please complete the following:

1 - Desired username and current email address:

2 - Your location and age:

3 - You are about to be stranded on a desert island. You can bring one person, one book, one film and one CD with you (please avoid commenting on the obvious lack of electrical/hi-fi equipment) - who/what would you take. Explain your reasons briefly?

4 - Favourites:

Food -
Drink -
TV programme -
Current Arsenal player -
Ex Arsenal player -
Arsenal goal -

5 - What team do you hate most and why?

6 - If you had an unlimited pot of money who would you sign this summer and why?

7 - Sum up last season in 20 words.

8 - Describe the best goal you have ever scored in your life.

9 - If you had to be one of the following which would you be and why.

a) A smurf b) A kestrel or c) A spaceship.

10 - If you have anything you'd like to tell us that isn't on the application form do it here:

IMPORTANT: Please do not use ****s to censor swear words. You MUST swear properly.

Obviously we can't just use it like-for-like, but say, instead of favourite Arsenal player, we could have favourite movie with Keira in it, favourite Keira role (may be different, some people may like their favourite Keira movie because of a co-star, not her) and so on. We could adapt it any way we wanted and use it to get to know people. I like the questions in that thread I linked to, we could incorporate those.

Look, I know I presented the idea in a very elitist "Fuck off n00bs" way but that's just my board persona, you guys know that. However I actually think the idea has merits, and if not to "restrict" membership, how about as a pre-requisite? IE doesn't matter what you answer, you just have to answer the questions. At least that way we know what people are like, and it serves the same purposes as making it a quality-testing thing but without the elitism.

Hazzle
28-05-2006, 11:47 AM
Who will review the application? how do you see it going? a simple page with a few forms on it and when applied Baz gets an e-mail with the answers?

Well, that's not really up to me. The way I've SEEN it utilised is that the threads are posted by unregistered users, they don't have "membership" but they can post. These are then commented on my existing members, and recently polls have been added. We don't have to necessarily go that way, but we can.

It all depends how we're using it, if we're using it as merely a pre-requisite to being a member, not actually a way of voting on new members, then it needn't have a poll, the thread just needs to be put up and Baz (or I believe it can be set up for mods to do this) can then set up the account. Or something. I don't have VBulletin skills, so I'm not sure how it's implemented, but it can be done, I know that.

Or do they just sing up normally and only have access to the Newcomers forum and the Keira boards, and have to fill in an application in a thread, were we can comment in, before they can get access to the Wavefront community boards?

I think that could be implemented too. It all depends on what the idea's being used for, and what everyone else thinks. At the end of the day, it's not my website, we're all members, and Baz has the final say, so it's up to him how he wants to implement it. At this stage, don't forget, people are against the IDEA in theory, so the implementation of it may not even end up being an issue. I think if we do go with it, as a trial, it should work on a slow roll-out basis, not jumping to extremes.

Personally I like that way of doing things, the one you just suggested. Trial it on GD and see how it goes. Sort of bit-part membership. Also that way people who simply want to post in Keira boards can do that, and it still provides us some content for lurkers.

barrington
28-05-2006, 03:02 PM
Maybe we can have a look at this after my exams finish on the 2nd June. Give it a trial run before POTC2 comes to kills us. Will let you know.

Swordsman
28-05-2006, 06:14 PM
Okay, i'ma level with yah. I haven't read all the posts because they got to long and i'm to slow and lazy to read them all. But this idea just seems silly. If i had to fill out a big application and wait for a response i wouldn't do it. I joined because it was free and easy.

If you hate people that don't come back why don't you set something up that's like after three months of being idle you get your profile deleted.

As for the one part i read of having someone approve you or recomend you or whatever...screw that. None of my friends or family know that i'm a member to this site because i'd be embarassed. I'm a very antisocial person and i wouldn't have come onto this site if i had to get someone to put me on. *Reminder:i didn't fully read the post were i read that sentence in.*

If you really want people to keep coming back you might as well do what a porn site does and start charging people to become members.

Hazzle
28-05-2006, 10:35 PM
Maybe we can have a look at this after my exams finish on the 2nd June. Give it a trial run before POTC2 comes to kills us. Will let you know.

Fair enough. Sorry to bring it up at such a bad time, merely when the idea occured to me.

I think it's been discussed to death so we'll leave it until then :)

Mandy
28-05-2006, 10:56 PM
Just don't let Haz come up with the questionnaire.

Hazzle
29-05-2006, 12:07 AM
Just don't let Haz come up with the questionnaire.

Wasn't suggesting that at all. I'm happy to help with anything, if needs be, as it's my idea and I should back it, but personally I'd prefer if we all came up with the questionaire together. Offered suggestions and whatnot. Then let you guys, the Officers, Mods and Admins, decide what the final format should be. Or something.

If I came up with the questionnaire it'd basically be : "Do you like Haz?"

Which actually would be a great questionaire. You lot would know a good member when you got a "no" and automatically know a spam-merchant if they said "yes".