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Foeni
02-03-2005, 04:58 PM
Like with the "Troops in Iraq"-thread, this is an issue that have been discussed a lot in Danish politics a couple of years ago. Should homosexual couples be allowed to adopt a child? There are some very good arguments for as well as against. I think the heaviest argument for is that a two men or two women can provide a child with as much love as a straight couple can. True, I don't doubt that. I just think that children should be raised with both a father and a mother, like it's ment to be. It simply isn't natural to be homosexual. If that was the case we would be able to have babies with a person of the same sex. Please don't get me wrong. I'm not against homosexuals, nor am I against marriage between people of the same sex. I respect that, I have homosexual friends, no problem there. We just need our children to grow up with parents of different sex. Children need both a male and a female parent. A lot think that children need someone to look up to, someone of the same sex. Therefor a boy need a father to look up to, but still he needs the mother, to find his more feminine sides. And women normally are less the tough type, if you know what I mean. Boys also need to have soft sides.

Damn it's hard to explain what I mean in English. But, cast your votes and start discussing :)

marine
02-03-2005, 06:13 PM
my answer tends to the yes.
I can't really give an argument though.

About the argument that we need parents of both sex, what do you do with all the children who are coming from familes with just a father or just a mother and who don't see their other parent ?
The person you look up to don't have to be one of your parents, cause gods know some parents shouldn't have been parents in the first place and are just miserable.

AureaMediocritas
02-03-2005, 06:40 PM
I would feel confused if I had to call the one man daddy and the other man
mummy... and as a male adolescent , I would pay more attention to my holes than a male adolescent living in a "heterosexual" family.
Nevertheless , I guess it is very cool to show off - in kindergarden etc. , rightly
pretending to have 2 mums and/or 2 dads !!!

Mandy
02-03-2005, 06:50 PM
Having a gay couple as my best friends helps me say yes...but I do believe that the child needs a maternal figure in their life. And I don't mean a transvestite.

PhoeniX
02-03-2005, 07:29 PM
I'm going to say yes, but when the child goes to school, they're going to go through 10 years of school life and possibly some of their life adult life being bullied. In England anyway, about 50% of people are homophobic, well in schools including the teachers so the adults don't seem to be that different from the students

Foeni
02-03-2005, 07:45 PM
I realize there's a problem with single parents, marine. But that ain't too healthy either. Though better than being a child with gay parents. If a child has no father, it will automatically try and find a 'new one'. A friend of mine lost his dad before he was born. His big brother, who is much older, have taken that father role, and I think that it was good for him.

Mags
02-03-2005, 07:48 PM
I voted yes. The way I think about it...these are kids who wouldn't have any parents at all otherwise...I mean...they're put up for adoption, and there clearly aren't enough couples, heterosexual or otherwise to take care of them. I don't think having two fathers or two mothers is going to put children who otherwise wouldn't have parents at a disadvantage.

I also think that any kid going through school will be bullied, whether their parents are gay or not. Kids'll be mean no matter what.

hasselbrad
02-03-2005, 07:53 PM
I say yes. Why? These people are straight. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/04/family.torture/)
Fat lot of good that did their adopted kids.

marine
02-03-2005, 08:02 PM
I realize there's a problem with single parents, marine. But that ain't too healthy either. Though better than being a child with gay parents. If a child has no father, it will automatically try and find a 'new one'. A friend of mine lost his dad before he was born. His big brother, who is much older, have taken that father role, and I think that it was good for him.


I just think that the ability to be a good parent, doesn't have anything to do with the fact of being homosexual, hetero, single or in couple and that it's
up to the parents to make children's lives as complete as possible.

Flightfreak
02-03-2005, 08:12 PM
My cousin is lesbian, her parents are hetero,...
I used to think too that it could not be healthy to have gay parents, but i had to change my mind after reading some studies about it.
It has as good as no bad influence on the children, most of them are even more open-minded than children out "normal" families.
So I voted “Yes”
but like Bellum_851 said, the fact that alot of people are terribly shortminded and against gay people doesnt make it any easier.

Mavrick
02-03-2005, 09:26 PM
Well, its hard to say, but i would vote No. Reason: For gay people to marry is their own choice and decision, but since its their choice to be not normal. And I believe that it shouldn't be forced on to a kid that has no clue about the world to be suddenly have different parents than normal. Not that is bad, but I personally would prefer to be raised by a common and normal Male and Female couple. Its just natural... My way of thinking about this is to have it be the kids choice (of which he will be too young at the time to make that choice). So that being the case, I belive that they should not be able to adopt... that is at least my opinion. But really, its a hard topic.

Ashley
02-03-2005, 10:06 PM
I said yes. This is just a theory, but I'd think that a child raised in a homosexual home would be more tolerant as an adult. Mags was right on when she said that children otherwise wouldn't have parents. There are many many kids waiting for parents, if it's a loving household, so be it.

Mags
02-03-2005, 10:43 PM
Well, its hard to say, but i would vote No. Reason: For gay people to marry is their own choice and decision, but since its their choice to be not normal. And I believe that it shouldn't be forced on to a kid that has no clue about the world to be suddenly have different parents than normal. Not that is bad, but I personally would prefer to be raised by a common and normal Male and Female couple. Its just natural... My way of thinking about this is to have it be the kids choice (of which he will be too young at the time to make that choice). So that being the case, I belive that they should not be able to adopt... that is at least my opinion. But really, its a hard topic.

First of all, I don't believe that people are necessarily choosing to be "abnormal." You may be naturally attracted to women, and I might be naturally attracted to men. It happens on an individual basis, and I don't think there's all that much choice in it, unless you mean the choice of denying your own attracting and lying about who you really are to fit into society's "norms."

As to the argument that kids adopted by homosexual parents don't have a choice, kids who are born to heterosexual parents don't have any choice in that matter either. You could end up with a mom that thinks she has to drown you in a bathtub to save your soul. Couples that go through the adoptive process have thorough background checks run on them, and they're not given children unless they have reasonably proven that they will love and care for the child to the best of their ability. There are no such restrictions for a 17 year old guy who gets his 16 year old girlfriend pregnant. I know that's generally an argument for adoption, but like I said before, there are not enough couples willing to adopt children already. Why should anyone deny a child the chance to have parents that will love them, just because they might be of the same sex?

Also, if there's the issue of male or female influences, there are always people kids can look up to. When my parents split and my dad lived thousands of miles away, I had a teacher, my band director, who would be there for me no matter what, even in situations where I wouldn't have been able to count on my dad. Plus, like I believe someone said before, no one is outrageously concerned for the welfare of children who suffer the death of a parent and thus are only raised by a parent of one sex, not receiving the opposite sex's influence. You can get that influence from lots of places.

And I agree with Ashley. It would seem more likely to me that children raised by homosexual parents would likely be much more tolerant of homosexuals, and I can't find anything wrong with that.

meegaan1
03-03-2005, 02:00 AM
Yes. Every person should have equal rights, no matter what their sexual orientation or what other people say.

IBO
03-03-2005, 03:27 AM
keep up the ghey work!
________
MEDICAL CANNABIS (http://medicalmarijuana.us/)

Scott
03-03-2005, 05:12 AM
I vote yes, but the child is still going to need positive male/female rolemodels.

Liam
03-03-2005, 05:22 AM
I say no. To me the idea of having same-sex parents is intrinsically wrong. Nature obviously didn't intend for it to happen.

Thats just how I see it.

SimplyKnightley
03-03-2005, 05:36 AM
i voted no. simply because it's against nature. things happen for a reason.

deviljet88
03-03-2005, 06:25 AM
Parents are supposed to be loving, but some aren't. So natural. Voted yes.

Flightfreak
03-03-2005, 06:41 AM
i voted no. simply because it's against nature. things happen for a reason.
lol, indeed things happen with a reason.
homophiles are not against nature, it is nature you find it everywhere with humans, animals, plants,...

SimplyKnightley
03-03-2005, 06:53 AM
nature does not make it possible for humans of the same gender to conceive a child. why? because there is a reason for it. whatever it is. is it so difficult to understand the point? geez

apoggy
03-03-2005, 10:08 AM
nature does not make it possible for humans of the same gender to conceive a child. why? because there is a reason for it. whatever it is. is it so difficult to understand the point? geez

It is physically impossible for a single woman to get pregnant, yet she can go down to the local sperm bank if needed. That argument is flawed, and is just used asa method of using science to justify a lack of understanding.

It is my view that gay couples should be allowed children, you cant classify a certain sexuality as being a good or bad parent, but on the whole I'd say they would make just as good parents as the rest of us. I may not understand their way of life, but that is their choice, a choice they are now able to make by law. You cant discriminate against them, otherwise similar arguments about disabled people being banned from having a child due to their 'abnormality' would ensue.

SimplyKnightley
03-03-2005, 12:51 PM
That argument is flawed, and is just used asa method of using science to justify a lack of understanding.

lack of understanding in what? it is my personal viewpoint that homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt because the fact that 2 people of the same gender could not produce an offspring means that nature has not meant it to be. of course i am aware that there are other methods for a woman to get pregnant should she not be able to do it the natural way. but my argument is based not on the 'limitations' of nature or how those so-called abnormal people would be discriminated. i am saying that nature has its way of how life should be. man and woman not only have different physical traits, their mental, intellectual and emotional made-ups also differ. they each have their own strengths and weaknesses and separate roles that they assume that are to have an important impact on a child growing up. having both parents of the same gender tips the balance and affects the development of a child. it's an unhealthy, vicious cycle.

Mags
03-03-2005, 06:15 PM
But would that suggest that a man and woman being infertile is nature's way of preventing them from having children? The truth is, most children who are adopted are adopted by people that, for some reason or another, can't conceive children on their own. If your argument is that nature has determined their biology to be such that they can't conceive, that would imply that the only people fit to adopt children are those who can conceive.

You also can't say for sure whether a child being raised by two parents of the same gender would have negative consequences. There's no proof that it would start a "vicious, unhealthy cycle." As I said before, children raised by one parent tend to manage fine on their own with regard to gender influences.

Kelsey
03-03-2005, 10:01 PM
No.

(And this is for the sake of the 5 characters min rule)

Ashley
03-03-2005, 10:52 PM
But would that suggest that a man and woman being infertile is nature's way of preventing them from having children? The truth is, most children who are adopted are adopted by people that, for some reason or another, can't conceive children on their own. If your argument is that nature has determined their biology to be such that they can't conceive, that would imply that the only people fit to adopt children are those who can conceive.

You also can't say for sure whether a child being raised by two parents of the same gender would have negative consequences. There's no proof that it would start a "vicious, unhealthy cycle." As I said before, children raised by one parent tend to manage fine on their own with regard to gender influences.

I agree. My friends who are gay would make better parents than a hell of a lot of straight couples I know. As I said before and will say again, I think they teach more tolerance than a straight couple, there's nothing wrong with tolerance.
If biology was God's way of picking out who has kids that would mean that nearlyevery woman with endometriosis wouldn't be allowed to have children. I'm not sure, but I don't know if it's common for a couple who has the ability to have children to adopt more.... it just doesn't seem like common practice.
And for the post a while ago that talked about homosexuality being abnormal, it's not really a choice. I talked about that with a friend of mine a while ago and he responded with "Do you think I would choose to get yelled at, called names, and beat up?"
That was really jumbled. Sorry.

SimplyKnightley
04-03-2005, 12:31 AM
But would that suggest that a man and woman being infertile is nature's way of preventing them from having children? The truth is, most children who are adopted are adopted by people that, for some reason or another, can't conceive children on their own. If your argument is that nature has determined their biology to be such that they can't conceive, that would imply that the only people fit to adopt children are those who can conceive.

You also can't say for sure whether a child being raised by two parents of the same gender would have negative consequences. There's no proof that it would start a "vicious, unhealthy cycle." As I said before, children raised by one parent tend to manage fine on their own with regard to gender influences.

a man and a woman being infertile is not the same as a homosexual couple's inability to conceive. infertility (for heterosexual couple) is nature's way of weeding out the weak and propagating only the strongest. it's 'survival of the fittest' or Darwin's theory of natural selection. it's nature's way of elimination, to decide what exists and what not.

those in support of homosexual couples adopting often talk about equal rights and use examples of personal acquaintances to illustrate how such couples could have a good influence on children. let's first look at equal rights. how many supporters actually think about the child while advocating rights for the couple to adopt him/her? have they thought about whether the child wants to belong to homosexual parents (which is out of the norm)? more often than not the child does not have a choice, especially when he/she is still an infant. is this equal rights? ok so u may say that an adopted child of heterosexual parents also does not get to choose. that will lead to my second argument. even though i do not dismiss the possibility of homosexual couples being good parents, i am concerned about how the child will assimilate into society. if a child born into a 'normal' family can be an object of victimisation, imagine how much worse the experience of a child from an 'abnormal' family would be and the negative psychological impact that would be inflicted. long-term societal issues ought to be taken into consideration, besides methods of familial parenting and individual choice.

Mags
04-03-2005, 12:57 AM
I think you run into trouble when you try to define a normal family. I don't really think there is such thing. Every family has its idiosyncracies. That's not to suggest that homosexuality is an idiosyncracy, it's simply that evey family has things that society as a whole might not define as normal. It becomes especially difficult to define that "normal family" when you consider the current rate of divorce. Single parent families are rapidly becoming the norm. I think a family with two loving parents can be a more positive environment than a family with one, especially with all the strife that divorce can cause. I'm not suggesting that all gay couples will stay together forever (we won't really know the stats on that until we also afford them the right to equal marriage under the law, but that's another topic all together) but adopting a child is a very serious undertaking, one that is not likely to be discarded lightly. You could argue the same thing for the birth of a child, but that is certainly not always planned.

And your argument (again) that infertility for a heterosexual couple is nature's way of weeding out the weak falls short as well. Like Ashley said, what about women with endometriosis or women who are brutalized and no longer possess reproductive function? Are we to believe that a woman being raped and beaten to the extent that there is no possibility of saving reproductive function is nature's way of ensuring she can't propogate life?

SimplyKnightley
04-03-2005, 01:20 AM
I think you run into trouble when you try to define a normal family. I don't really think there is such thing. Every family has its idiosyncracies. That's not to suggest that homosexuality is an idiosyncracy, it's simply that evey family has things that society as a whole might not define as normal. It becomes especially difficult to define that "normal family" when you consider the current rate of divorce. Single parent families are rapidly becoming the norm. I think a family with two loving parents can be a more positive environment than a family with one, especially with all the strife that divorce can cause. I'm not suggesting that all gay couples will stay together forever (we won't really know the stats on that until we also afford them the right to equal marriage under the law, but that's another topic all together) but adopting a child is a very serious undertaking, one that is not likely to be discarded lightly. You could argue the same thing for the birth of a child, but that is certainly not always planned.

And your argument (again) that infertility for a heterosexual couple is nature's way of weeding out the weak falls short as well. Like Ashley said, what about women with endometriosis or women who are brutalized and no longer possess reproductive function? Are we to believe that a woman being raped and beaten to the extent that there is no possibility of saving reproductive function is nature's way of ensuring she can't propogate life?

i did not try to define a normal family, hence the " ", if u notice. perhaps that is why u missed the point. and just like what you brought up about couples who are infertile, divorce and single parent familes is a separate issue from the topic of discussion here. that's the danger of veering out of scope when focus is lost amidst arguments.

once again, your counter-argument to my quoting of Darwin's theory of natural selection has been taken out of context and taken a violent swerve towards the issues of 'women with endometriosis or women who are brutalized and no longer possess reproductive function' which obviously have nothing to do with the thread's topic of discussion and what i have been trying to put across.

Ashley
04-03-2005, 01:41 AM
Why are we afraid of homosexuals adopting? Is it because they may grow up to be homosexuals? ::Gasp:: It's going to happen anyway, every homosexual I know has a mother and a father. What's the difference? Kids are going to get made fun of regardless, it just happens.
And in regards to children in general being adopted and not having a choice. A friend of mine is adopted and was adopted by a hetrosexual couple and doesn't get along with them. In fact, now she has no contact with them. So hetrosexual couple adopting doesn't guarantee a happy household. (That was a bit off topic, but it kinda fits)

Dionysus
04-03-2005, 02:38 AM
i say no
its hard enough for straight couples to addopt kids, and the addopted kids should go to normal homes for a normal as possible up bringing

also think of the poor kid at school, he would get teased SO BADLY by the other kids because he has 2 dads, and the poor kid would probably turn out a little funny, also theres a good chance he'll turn out gay, which isnt a bad thing, but he would be very confused as to what he really wants

just my opinion

Scott
04-03-2005, 09:25 AM
Would you rather be brought up by a homosexual couple who loves you, or a heterosexual couple that treats you like shit?

Liam
04-03-2005, 09:47 AM
I'd rather be brought up by a pair of daleks with big breasts and a built in toaster oven, in any case.

Flightfreak
04-03-2005, 04:18 PM
i say no
its hard enough for straight couples to addopt kids, and the addopted kids should go to normal homes for a normal as possible up bringing

also think of the poor kid at school, he would get teased SO BADLY by the other kids because he has 2 dads, and the poor kid would probably turn out a little funny, also theres a good chance he'll turn out gay, which isnt a bad thing, but he would be very confused as to what he really wants

just my opinion

maybe, thought it is proven by now that it has NO influence on the development of the child.
but even if you don’t believe the studies…,there are heaps of children who wait for an adoption, and believe me they are better off with gay parents than the centres they are in now!
I have an adopted brother my self so I know that stuff.

Ardnax
04-03-2005, 04:46 PM
I think they should be alowed to adopt. If I had a partner with the same gender and we wanted a child we would adopt, but it isn't possible, yet, so that would be a disappointment. But now I'm only 15 so I guess that issue won't come for a while if it does :)

deviljet88
05-03-2005, 01:08 AM
Kind of off topic, but would you want homosexuals to acquire children through IVF or adolption?

Spire
05-03-2005, 05:49 AM
Gays am gross.

Jamie
06-03-2005, 06:36 PM
I say no. To me the idea of having same-sex parents is intrinsically wrong. Nature obviously didn't intend for it to happen.

Thats just how I see it.

I agree with you.

peach
07-03-2005, 11:12 AM
I think they should be allowed, it's better for them to have two parents who loves them than nobody.

Ashley
07-03-2005, 02:13 PM
Who's to say that nature didn't want this to happen so that these kids who are up for adoption will have a home? It's not the ideal, but who here has the ideal family?

johnnyboy
15-03-2005, 03:32 AM
nature does not make it possible for humans of the same gender to conceive a child. why? because there is a reason for it. whatever it is. is it so difficult to understand the point? geez

You argument is also flawed in the matter that the homosexual couple is not trying to conceive a child, they are just raising the child.

I, for one, see some benefit to being raised by a homosexual couple. The child would certainly be taught to have a very tolerant view of the world.

And for people who say that if a child is adopted by a homosexual couple, it will turn out homosexual, its been proven through study that a child raised by a homosexual couple is no more likely to become homosexual than a child raised by a heterosexual couple.

Plus, everybody, no matter who, is not 100 % male or 100% female, males always have some feminine tendencies and females always have some masculine tendencies. This comes in varying degrees, 90 - 10, 80 - 20, etc. It is more likely a person will become homosexual because of this rather than having a homosexual couple as parents. :bump:

In other words, yes

SimplyKnightley
15-03-2005, 05:51 AM
You argument is also flawed in the matter that the homosexual couple is not trying to conceive a child, they are just raising the child.

i quote myself, "nature does not make it possible for humans of the same gender to conceive a child."

when did i ever argue about homosexual couples attempting to conceive? i am just saying it is impossible for them to do so and thus, not intended by nature that they parent a child together.

you claimed that a child raised by homosexual parents "would certainly be taught to have a very tolerant view of the world". i find that sweeping, baseless and flawed.

room4602
15-03-2005, 05:59 AM
If it doesn't harm anyone why stop it? I think homosexuals should have the right to take care of a child if they are financially stable and emotionally capable. Although I am a Catholic and I'm conservative (both groups frown upon homosexuality), I don't think this kind of decision is up to us. I believe all people deserve this kind a freedom. I am in no way against homosexuality. Woudln't it be dictatorship is we refused someone a right based on their sexual orientation?

Flightfreak
15-03-2005, 07:52 AM
i quote myself, "nature does not make it possible for humans of the same gender to conceive a child."

when did i ever argue about homosexual couples attempting to conceive? i am just saying it is impossible for them to do so and thus, not intended by nature that they parent a child together.

you claimed that a child raised by homosexual parents "would certainly be taught to have a very tolerant view of the world". i find that sweeping, baseless and flawed.

its a fact that childeren who were raised by homosexual parents have a more open minded / open tolerant view.

SimplyKnightley
15-03-2005, 07:57 AM
facts need to be substantiated :)

Flightfreak
15-03-2005, 08:17 AM
I am to lazy to look it up. but its logical no?
people who have to fight more for the same social acceptance as hetro people, have a better ability to empathize and are more tolerant towards other people, the fact that gay people need fight more for social acceptance, gives them the possibility to raise their children (adopted or not) with those social values. What makes them more tolerant and openminded.

Liam
15-03-2005, 08:24 AM
They need to fight for acceptance?

Its getting to the point now where heterosexual people are having to fight for acceptance. Political correctness has gone way too far. Two popular radio hosts here are being *forced* to apologise for referring to a pair of gay blokes who flaunted themselves on television as 'poofs' - a phrase which has been in the Australian vernacular for decades. It shits me, I'm afraid.

I'm all for equal rights, I really am. I'm just sick and tired of the bullshit that ensues when equal rights get taken too far.

</rant>

SimplyKnightley
15-03-2005, 08:25 AM
i'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way. what about abused kids who grow up to be abusers themselves? shouldn't they be more empathetic since they have experienced first hand what it's like to be physically and/or mentally terrorized? hence logic doesn't apply that way.

duckula
15-03-2005, 09:15 AM
Gays should be shot, not entrusted with the upbringing of the next generation.

Flightfreak
15-03-2005, 04:43 PM
They need to fight for acceptance?

Its getting to the point now where heterosexual people are having to fight for acceptance. Political correctness has gone way too far. Two popular radio hosts here are being *forced* to apologise for referring to a pair of gay blokes who flaunted themselves on television as 'poofs' - a phrase which has been in the Australian vernacular for decades. It shits me, I'm afraid.

I'm all for equal rights, I really am. I'm just sick and tired of the bullshit that ensues when equal rights get taken too far.

</rant>

Well than you have a problem with the Media who blows it out of proportion and not with gay people themselves.
"Sensational press is a billion dollars industries"...due the stupidity of ...% of the population who keeps it rolling.

i'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way. what about abused kids who grow up to be abusers themselves? shouldn't they be more empathetic since they have experienced first hand what it's like to be physically and/or mentally terrorized? hence logic doesn't apply that way.

Some abused children are more empathetic,…, some aren’t,...but each situation is different,…,each child is different,...,you can’t put them in one box "abused children".
AS IF raising kids by homosexual parents is like abusing them, like mentally terrorizing them that’s just ridicules.
Your argument is flawed.

To educate is setting an example for your kids,…, how they should behave in our society (this is one part of educating children...).
Because of the fact that gay people need to fight more for social acceptance in our society will make their children more open-minded, because their parents will raise them with those social values,…, what will make them more open-minded and socially tolerant.

Gays should be shot, not entrusted with the upbringing of the next generation.

luckily it isn’t genetically stipulated. :icon_razz

keiracaleb
15-03-2005, 06:50 PM
Gays should be shot, not entrusted with the upbringing of the next generation.
Duckula u do realise you have just probably hurt every single homosexual memeber of this forum! If you want to express your opinion do so in a way that will not insult anyone else on the forums isn't one of the rules dont insult any of the other members? by expressing you opinion in that ludicrous manner you have broken that rule. We homosexuals can't help it and how would you liek it if somebody turned up on your doorstep and said to you" You're different we have come to kill you!", heldl you down and then blasted your brains out!?

Leonie
15-03-2005, 07:45 PM
Duckula u do realise you have just probably hurt every single homosexual memeber of this forum!

He knows. Trust me. :icon_bigg

Also, have a look at this rule:

8. Everything the Mods & Admins say is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is a dictatorship not a democracy.

:icon_razz

Before you get offended, I'm just kidding :)

SimplyKnightley
15-03-2005, 11:46 PM
Some abused children are more empathetic,…, some aren’t,...but each situation is different,…,each child is different,...,you can’t put them in one box "abused children".
AS IF raising kids by homosexual parents is like abusing them, like mentally terrorizing them that’s just ridicules.
Your argument is flawed.

exactly. and you can't assume that ALL homosexual parents are better capable of raising kids, which is basically what you are arguing for, again in your latest entry. my example of abused kids is to counteract your flawed argument (the proof of which you are too 'lazy' to provide), not implying anything about abuse of kids by homosexual parents. they are two different matters. so please take time to ponder on the debate and slow down on the rebuke. even if we don't share the same viewpoint at least make this a constructive exchange of thoughts. in case you read that the wrong way i am not pinpointing anyone. just a general reminder :)

Flightfreak
16-03-2005, 06:44 AM
What i am arguing for is that children raised by homosexual parents will be more open-minded and socially tolerant.
Because they get confronted with something most children out hetro families don’t get confronted with. Even worse a lot of parents are intolerant to wraths them, are against gay people, gay marriage, gay parents adoption…
Its just a fact that children with homosexual parents are more openminded more tolerant because they know it, they are used to it, they don’t have difficulties with it because it’s a normal thing.
My example wasn’t flawed; it only showed that parents set an example for their children how to behave in society.
Now abuse of children; first of all raising kids by homosexual is NOT being physically and/or mentally terrorized.
The problem children and situations you refer to are so complex that you cant use them in this argue.
But if you want to argue about that too...be my guest :p
Now, who are the children who are putted in adoption? Most of the time it are children out the lower class of society, third world countries, orphanages… It are not children that come out healthy family situations… there are very long guard lists of children who wait for adoption and are temperedly in social centrums. Even is you believe that homosexual parents aren’t the best solution, even than those children are better off with homosexual parents then staying in those centrums.

I like constructive exchange of thoughts. :)

SimplyKnightley
16-03-2005, 07:20 AM
What i am arguing for is that children raised by homosexual parents will be more open-minded and socially tolerant.
Because they get confronted with something most children out hetro families don’t get confronted with. Even worse a lot of parents are intolerant to wraths them, are against gay people, gay marriage, gay parents adoption…
Its just a fact that children with homosexual parents are more openminded more tolerant because they know it, they are used to it, they don’t have difficulties with it because it’s a normal thing.

i understand what u're trying to say but it's still a hypothesis which is based on assumptions. sociological implications of a new policy call for long-term, intensive qualitative researches and there is no shortcut about it using so-called logical thinking, e.g. because Parent A is a nice person, Kid A will be raised to be a nice person. It's not so clear-cut like that. if every phenomenon follows logical thinking, the world would be black and white. in reality, it is grey with many different shades. if social outcome can be so easily deduced, then sociologists will be out of job. if you say that "children raised by homosexual parents will be more open-minded and socially tolerant", do u mean that only children raised by homosexual parents can become more open-minded and socially-tolerant? if you do not mean that, then you have lost your case :) simply because you can't deny the fact that heterosexual parents do raise very open-minded and socially tolerant children.

Now abuse of children; first of all raising kids by homosexual is NOT being physically and/or mentally terrorized.
The problem children and situations you refer to are so complex that you cant use them in this argue.
But if you want to argue about that too...be my guest :p

yes i shall argue not for the mere sake of it but because you have misunderstood my point. i did not say that being raised by homosexual parents is physically and/or mentally terrorizing. i have already explained that "abused kids" is a separate example i used not in direct relation to the topic in question. no wonder u find it complex. i almost got confused by your confusion :P

Flightfreak
16-03-2005, 07:41 AM
"children raised by homosexual parents will be more open-minded and socially tolerant", do u mean that only children raised by homosexual parents can become more open-minded and socially-tolerant?

No, you miss understood my point :p
Raising kids is setting an example for them, is raising them up with certain social values, hetro people can raise them with the same values but it doesn’t necessarily happen most of the times it don’t, or less than with homosexual parents. with homosexual parents it happens automatically because the children get confronted with hetro couples as well as with homosexual couples what makes them more understandable and tolerant for it, what makes them also more open and tolerant for other social differences.
My hypotheses are based on personal experience and logical thinking.
You can't deny the fact that those children are better off with homosexual parents than in social centrums.

yes i shall argue not for the mere sake of it but because you have misunderstood my point. i did not say that being raised by homosexual parents is physically and/or mentally terrorizing. i have already explained that it is a separate example i used not in direct relation to the topic in question. no wonder u find it complex. i almost got confused by your confusion :P

i didn’t find it complex, *the social cases* you referred to are to complex to use in this argue.

Edit: Totally off topic, but i really like you new signature
--> Life is drawing, without an eraser
first time I heard it like that, and it holds an enormous truth. :)

SimplyKnightley
16-03-2005, 07:52 AM
thank you. at least we agreed on something :p

Ashley
16-03-2005, 03:00 PM
i'm afraid it doesn't quite work that way. what about abused kids who grow up to be abusers themselves? shouldn't they be more empathetic since they have experienced first hand what it's like to be physically and/or mentally terrorized? hence logic doesn't apply that way.

Not really, because one could argue that the child could be being taught that abuse is okay and the normal.
Now, you'll come back with something along the lines of "Homosexuality isn't normal." To which I answer back with if it's not normal why doesn nature allow it to happen?

SimplyKnightley
16-03-2005, 11:27 PM
excuse me? oh wait, i don't have to respond to a monologue :icon_razz

Ashley
17-03-2005, 12:44 AM
You don't have to but you did.

SimplyKnightley
17-03-2005, 12:48 AM
and...?

Meteora
17-03-2005, 12:56 AM
To which I answer back with if it's not normal why doesn nature allow it to happen?
Because nature isn't an entity. It makes no decisions and it has no inteligence. It does not allow anything, nor does it forbid anything. It is not good or bad, it cannot be used to determine what is evil and what is moral, and it does not have a set standard for any of its aspects.

Nature is. Nothing more.

Normal and abnormal is a human decision, for humans are the only beings, aside from the supernaturals, that have the authority and the capability to make such categorizations.

Ashley
17-03-2005, 03:04 AM
I talked about nature as a person to go back to this quote.


when did i ever argue about homosexual couples attempting to conceive? i am just saying it is impossible for them to do so and thus, not intended by nature that they parent a child together.

SimplyKnightley
17-03-2005, 03:07 AM
Meteora, any relevance to what you and I are saying? Pls enlighten

Ashley
17-03-2005, 03:14 AM
Meteora, any relevance to what you and I are saying? Pls enlighten

Any relevance from my statement to yours? I know you said Meteora, but I dunno, I've had a long day. Anyway, I was just saying that according to Meteora's comment nature can't make decisions. And in that quote you said it's not inteded by nature, kinda saying that nature sat down physically and wrote some rules down.

I could have misunderstood though it's possible.

once_dreaded
14-04-2006, 06:53 AM
*ahem* My lessie Mom and Pop (they're both females...I happen to call one Pop because she's more dad-like) have a son they are raising together. Pop is the biological mother, signed over her rights as a parent so that Mom could adopt my lil bro, then my Pop had to go to court to be able to adopt my lil bro so that they could both be legally considered his parents. My lil bro is very tolerant of all people, he's smart, out-going, and not at all "messed up" by having two women raise him. He has positive male role models, he doesn't need a "father" in his life. How do I fit in this family, I'm a family friend that got "adopted" as their kid because they cared that much about me.
All the arguements in the world about homosexuals being unfit to adopt/raise healthy children can be thrown out the window as far as I'm concerned.

KeirazBabe
14-04-2006, 02:13 PM
Ok... well i dont really know where to start here. considering that im a lesbian & so therefore think its 100% fine for gays to adopt a child...

I think the heaviest argument for is that a two men or two women can provide a child with as much love as a straight couple can.

Er.. are you actually JOKING me love? They cant GIVE a child as much LOVE?! WTF x 10!!! So your saying that a loving gay couple who DESPERATELY want a family & can provide a FANTASTIC home cant give as much love to a child just because theyre gay as opposed to a straight couple who conceived by accident & never wanted the child???

I dont think thats true that a child NEEDS both a female & male parents, a same sex couple can carry out the different rols just the same, they can have close relatives & friends to provide the example of the other sex etc etc. Also single parents bring up their children just as well!

Tony & Barrie Drewitt Barlow were the first gay couple to have children that biologically belonged to them (via a surrogate mother) & in order for the children to maintain a female role model they had the help of a female nany in their younger years & they have regular contact with their biological & surrogate mothers etc ... oh &they also have the most LOVING parents & a wealthy lifestyle... dont see how anyone can criticise that?

Oh also the argument that the children will turn out gay is HILARIOUS.. because children with straight parents ALL turn out straight dont they?!

Im done :)

Megan xXx

Foeni
14-04-2006, 03:20 PM
Er.. are you actually JOKING me love? They cant GIVE a child as much LOVE?! WTF x 10!!! So your saying that a loving gay couple who DESPERATELY want a family & can provide a FANTASTIC home cant give as much love to a child just because theyre gay as opposed to a straight couple who conceived by accident & never wanted the child???
I think you misunderstood me. What I mean is that the heaviest argument for homosexuals to be allowed to adopt, is that they can give the child as much love as a straight couple. I might have used wrong punctuation earlier.

Oh also the argument that the children will turn out gay is HILARIOUS.. because children with straight parents ALL turn out straight dont they?!
Yes, it is. I still believe a child should have both a father and a mother.

Jacoby
14-04-2006, 04:23 PM
I seemed to miss this thread before. But, yes, I absolutely think homosexual couples should be able to adopt. If they're willing to actually care for the child, then there's no problem at all. Sure the kid will get picked on in school, but what kid doesn't get picked on? Hopefully his two dads teach him how to beat the shit out of annoying kids like that.


I think there's no reason to limit the rights of homosexuals. It's the strongest mixture of church and state (in America) and it's annoying.

Scaramouche
14-04-2006, 05:02 PM
YES YES YES!!!
They are just people.
I have two loveing moms who are lesbian... and I live in UTAH! The most religious homophobic state in the US!
I have a big problem with homophobes and people who say no [becuase they are so blind].

I was adopted here before they past the law that they couldn't.... And I have a dad, but I don't see him, I REALLY DON'T CARE. I know, because I'm in the situation, YOU DON'T NEED A MOM AND A DAD.
If you do, why don't we make single parent adoptions illegal?
But we don't.... we just say that because we don't want the homo's too.
grrr.

Scaramouche
14-04-2006, 05:11 PM
This isn't adoption... but marriage.
10 reasons why gay marriage is wrong. ;D

Homosexuality is not natural. Real people always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn’t changed at all; women are still property, blacks still aren’t supposed to marry whites.
Straight marriage will be less meaningful if homosexual marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears’ 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Homosexual couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren’t full yet, and the world needs more children.
Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That’s why we have only one religion in North America.
Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That’s why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven’t adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

Ranman
14-04-2006, 07:42 PM
You are such a loser, Back to the stoneage you Republican

hasselbrad
14-04-2006, 08:16 PM
I think the government should stay the fuck out of peoples' private business, period.

dave
15-04-2006, 09:00 AM
I think the government should stay <snip> out of peoples' private business, period.

I believe that married homosexual couples should be allowed to adopt children. I shudder when I contemplate the current situation, (i.e. that one of the partners can just "move out.")

I want some sort of assurance that the couple really is a "couple." I've known several homosexual people, and frankly, none of those particular people would want to adopt anyone. I suspect that it would take a pair of particularly "complete" people before they would want to/be capable of adopting.

Oh, one more thing. With our current level of gene-splicing technology it won't be five years before we see the first child born of two females. So, the "against nature" argument is absurd. Two men could use a surrogate womb, the gene-splicing technology would be even easier for them.

Anyone remember the name of that old Science Fiction novel where the women had eliminated all the men as being redundant?

kingdumbass
15-04-2006, 09:07 AM
Everyone knows that it's much healthier for a child to have an unstable homelife, being passed around from foster parent to foster parent, than to have a loving family!

Scaramouche
15-04-2006, 04:57 PM
You are such a loser, Back to the stoneage you Republican

who are you saying that to :icon_conf

Scaramouche
15-04-2006, 05:03 PM
Also I saw that somewhere someone added that it's not equality if the adopted child doesn't get to pick their parents... well it's the same way with your baby that you had, did it get to choose to live with straight parents? And if the adopted baby is too young to know, it's going to grow up ok. You grow up and believe what you parents believe [usually].

And stop saying normal and "unnormal" parents. GLBT parents are just as normal as straight parents, it's society today that tells us it's not. And frankly, I believe society is very shallow minded. <3

Foeni
16-04-2006, 06:12 PM
We need to think of the child. A kid that has two dads or two mums will get bullied. And yes, all children get bullied, but why make it worse? It's also the most natural.

Scaramouche, there's an edit button. Use that instead of double posting please.

Arbery
16-04-2006, 06:19 PM
i dont think they should...its a bit harsh on the kid. I've got nothing against gay people...i just dont think they should be allowed to adopt kids!

Scaramouche
16-04-2006, 06:50 PM
oh it's not harsh on me.
and you don't get bullied any more, and I live in a very religious, very republican city.


So really, you are both wrong.

Arbery
16-04-2006, 06:53 PM
oh it's not harsh on me.
and you don't get bullied any more, and I live in a very religious, very republican city.


So really, you are both wrong.

yea...fair shout...it does depends on where you live n shit...but i bet that a lot of the time...the kid will get bullied, which is really unfair!

But this is my point of view...i wouldn't want gay parents to be quite honest with you...it just wouldn't feel right ya know

EmotionSickness
16-04-2006, 07:34 PM
I don't have an opinion on this right now. Sounds silly, but it's true.

I'm inclined to say no, for a plethora of reasons (most of which Liam has already voiced), but to be completely honest, I don't spend much time thinking about issues involving homosexuals.

Arbery
17-04-2006, 12:52 AM
I don't have an opinion on this right now. Sounds silly, but it's true.

I'm inclined to say no, for a plethora of reasons (most of which Liam has already voiced), but to be completely honest, I don't spend much time thinking about issues involving homosexuals.

.......fair shout :)

Scaramouche
17-04-2006, 03:59 AM
yea...fair shout...it does depends on where you live n shit...but i bet that a lot of the time...the kid will get bullied, which is really unfair!

But this is my point of view...i wouldn't want gay parents to be quite honest with you...it just wouldn't feel right ya know


But you also wouldn't have been raised the same, and it would be natural if you didn't know what you know now. [like if you were with them since you were a baby.]

I don't have an opinion on this right now. Sounds silly, but it's true.

I'm inclined to say no, for a plethora of reasons (most of which Liam has already voiced), but to be completely honest, I don't spend much time thinking about issues involving homosexuals.

Why not? Why does it matter if it invloves them. That's discrimination, that's like saying "I don't spend much time thinking about issues involving asains". But then again, most of the people who said no are probably sexist, homophoic, bigots.

[and I'm not trying to be rude. I'm sorry if it sounds that way, but I have very strong opinions with facts to support them. <3 much love everyone]

Jacoby
17-04-2006, 04:27 AM
most of the people who said no are probably sexist, homophoic, bigots.

[and I'm not trying to be rude. I'm sorry if it sounds that way, but I have very strong opinions with facts to support them. <3 much love everyone]

Okay, I guess I'm on your side with this matter, but please, calm down. First of all, saying the people who said 'no' are sexist, biggots and what not is generalizing...which is the exact thing you're pissed off about in the first place. Nobody likes a hypocrit. Secondly, you cannot have opinions with facts to support them. An opinion cannot be supported by a fact, otherwise it would just be a fact.

EmotionSickness
17-04-2006, 04:42 AM
Why not? Why does it matter if it invloves them. That's discrimination, that's like saying "I don't spend much time thinking about issues involving asains". But then again, most of the people who said no are probably sexist, homophoic, bigots.

Haha. Wow. I'm aloud to have an opinion.. or no opinion if I so choose. The rights of homosexuals does not in any way, shape, or form affect me at the moment, and that goes both ways (whether they're allowed to get married/adopt or not, it's not going to have an impact on my life. Sorry.) Personally, I feel there are far more important issues and topics of politically-motivated conversation in the world today for me to occupy my mind with.

Feeling this way doesn't make me a bigot, whatsoever. If anything, it makes you seem very ignorant and narrow-minded for not accepting the fact that not EVERYONE is going to agree with you... "facts" or no facts. End of story.

Foeni
17-04-2006, 10:32 AM
Why ignore something that exists and is perfectly normal? Maybe we should forbid handicapped children to go to school, because they could be bullied…
Homosexuality is not normal. It's a perversion from nature.
I strongly believe that the best thing for a child is to be raised in a family with both a mother and a father. A child needs input from both males and females in their family. Sometimes it will work out, granted. Sometimes, mostly, it won't. Just as it isn't the best thing for a child to have two mums or two dads, hence the lack of either male or female input, it's not the best for a child to live with a single parent. That situation is different because that parent very likely will find a new husband/wife.
Scaramouche, you are just as intolerant as you accuse us of being. Your opinion isn't more right than any of ours. The only one with that privilege is duckula ;)

Foeni
17-04-2006, 11:15 AM
That's because you find the extreme situations.
If two people of the same sex was meant to have children together, it would be possible from nature.

Foeni
17-04-2006, 11:57 AM
I highly doubt that...

Ranman
17-04-2006, 04:06 PM
I think you two are in love and should get married

Foeni
17-04-2006, 04:52 PM
Wouldn't that break your heart?

Scaramouche
17-04-2006, 10:09 PM
Okay, I guess I'm on your side with this matter, but please, calm down. First of all, saying the people who said 'no' are sexist, biggots and what not is generalizing...which is the exact thing you're pissed off about in the first place. Nobody likes a hypocrit. Secondly, you cannot have opinions with facts to support them. An opinion cannot be supported by a fact, otherwise it would just be a fact.

Yes, I was generalizing, I recognize that. I would have stated it [because usually i do when i make generalizations]. I'm sorry. I just get really steamed on this subject.

It's natural! We have found other animals to be homosexual. Romans used to think homosexuality was a higher form of life. People who are GLBT (gay lesbian bi trans) do not choose to be that way. It is not something you can choose.

And I do have more say in this subject because i've been through it all my life. I have experiance. I am only 14 and might not be able to word what i'm trying to say, but I can tell you. GLTB couples, parents, are perfectly normal.

EmotionSickness
17-04-2006, 10:44 PM
And I do have more say in this subject because i've been through it all my life. I have experiance. I am only 14 and might not be able to word what i'm trying to say, but I can tell you. GLTB couples, parents, are perfectly normal.

Perfectly normal to YOU, that is. There is no conclusive scientific evidence regarding homosexuals and issues concerning them (anyone who tells you otherwise is full of it).

You need to understand that this is a very hot topic and, more importantly, not everyone is going to agree with your view that homosexuality is a perfectly normal thing. In fact, there is evidence (again, NOT CONCLUSIVE) that says otherwise (i.e. a homosexual male's anterior hypothalamus tends to be the same size as a heterosexual female's, but I'm not going to get into that right now).

I know you feel strongly about this because this issue hits close to home for you, and I feel for you, but you are NEVER going to get ANYWHERE by lashing out and calling others who do not support your OPINIONS bigots.

Scaramouche
17-04-2006, 11:23 PM
generlizations dear, I already stated that I made one.
I don't hate anyone [I don't think that's possible for me].

Swordsman
17-04-2006, 11:25 PM
i didn't read any of the other posts but...

i don't see the problem with letting two people love each other.

EmotionSickness
17-04-2006, 11:30 PM
Hmm. Perhaps you should go back and read some of the posts and the title of the thread, Swordsman, seeing as how this isn't a thread about homosexual unions, but about your opinion on homosexuals being able to adopt children.

Swordsman
18-04-2006, 03:28 AM
...DAMMIT! yeah, i should've at least read the title correctly... but now you know i think they should marry. let them adopt.

thank you EmotionSickness

Leonie
18-04-2006, 06:38 AM
oh it's not harsh on me.
and you don't get bullied any more, and I live in a very religious, very republican city.


So really, you are both wrong.

Good for you, but the one who's wrong is you. One case does not make a rule, and arguing like it does puts your entire argument on thin ice.

Personally, I find it hard to make up my mind about this matter. On the one hand, there are some other animals that engage in homosexual relationships, granted, but then they don't exactly raise children as far as I know. There is counterevidence suggesting that gay people are really biologically deviant. My stance in homosexuality in general is 'good on ya, now go bother someone else'. I don't care. I don't care if you're straight or gay, and I don't care about people telling me either.

However, I don't know about allowing homosexuals to adopt kids. My one big issue with it is that there are enough children who have been through more than their share of misery, having lousy examples for parents. If your dad's been hitting your mum and getting drunk on a daily basis, being raised by two women afterwards might influence the way you go about a) being a man, or b) acting towards men (if the child's a girl). Why put more adaptational problems in these children's ways? Most children aren't in shelters because they've had such a great life full of fantastic role models.

Arbery
18-04-2006, 11:45 AM
But you also wouldn't have been raised the same, and it would be natural if you didn't know what you know now. [like if you were with them since you were a baby.]

Yea...but when your older and start learning about these things and then realised its happened to you...no matter how nice they are and how well you've been bought up...you'll prolly still think about it and think of lots of issues or something...but then again you might not...but i would. And when people you know find out about it and start learning about it...they could (not saying they would) but they could start taking the piss outta you for it

Ranman
18-04-2006, 12:11 PM
How many gay people have gay parents, not many my guess
How many gay people have been gay their whole life, most of them
How many gay people were influenced to be gay by gay people, not many
A child raised by a gay couple would be understanding of different
ways of life, to be tolerant to other people, not prejudge people.
Sounds like a person I would call a good friend