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CFC
01-11-2004, 08:13 PM
Sadly, I think it will last for weeks, maybe months. Some states look like a complete mess. Gonna take a while for them to declare Bush the winner.

Bush by 50,

hasselbrad
01-11-2004, 08:21 PM
I think you are right. I am afraid it will be worse than 2000.

The Black Rider
01-11-2004, 08:27 PM
I'm fairly optimistic that the election will go well. If it doesn't, though, I'm going to be furious. I'm contemplating the possibility of a riot if thus is the case.

Moe
01-11-2004, 08:30 PM
The results will be announced on my birthday! Useless info, but fun.
So how many of you think that something like four years ago will happen again?

Sarah
01-11-2004, 08:31 PM
Gooooooooo Bush!

Gooooooooo Kerry!

Just don't destroy the world!

hasselbrad
01-11-2004, 08:33 PM
Having seen the anger of Kerry supporters in ripping up signs and vandalizing Bush campaign headquarters, I will not be surprised to see widespread vandalism against homes with Bush sign and cars with Bush stickers. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not. I can remember elections all the way back to Reagan v. Carter, and I've never seen an air of contentiousness like this.

Kelsey
01-11-2004, 08:38 PM
Having seen the anger of Kerry supporters in ripping up signs and vandalizing Bush campaign headquarters, I will not be surprised to see widespread vandalism against homes with Bush sign and cars with Bush stickers. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I'm not. I can remember elections all the way back to Reagan v. Carter, and I've never seen an air of contentiousness like this.

My grandmother put a sign out for Bush in her front yard, and the next day she walked out to see that someone had written murder across it and dumped trash on it. She bought a new one and put it out there, the next day the same thing happened. I suggested she should turn out all the lights and sit out on the porch so she can see who it is....because it's probably one of her little old lady neighbors that she has over for tea every day, or something like that.

I, personally, think Bush will walk away the winner. Just a feeling.

The Black Rider
01-11-2004, 08:40 PM
A neighbors' Kerry/Edwards campaign sign was stolen on Cabbage Night. That made me laugh, though. I can't stand them.

About a week and a half ago, another neighbor put up a Bush/Cheney sign on his lawn. Within two days, every other house on my street (as well as the two adjacent streets) had a campaign sign in front of it. It's maddening seeing that much political exhibition on my way home from school.

hasselbrad
01-11-2004, 08:43 PM
I, personally, think Bush will walk away the winner. Just a feeling.

I hope you're right. It's going to take a big margin to nullify the legal challenges. I just hope they don't make a laughingstock out of Florida...no wait, I want to get out of this state as fast as I can. Fuck it. Laugh it up. We are called Floridiots for a reason.

Jacoby
01-11-2004, 08:55 PM
Yay for Kerry. I don't want to be drafted. But it won't affect me too much whichever loser gets elected. Well, I would get better loans with Kerry, and my dad might get that tax break.



http://www.burnbush2004.com/samples/sample_sucksless.jpg

CFC
01-11-2004, 08:59 PM
I love how all the liberals really think there is going to be a draft.

seitanic
01-11-2004, 09:09 PM
I love how all the liberals really think there is going to be a draft.

The original HR 163 bill was proposed by a group of Democrats in order to drum up opposition to the war. When it was finally voted on in the house on October 5th it was shot down with a vote of 402-2.

However, things may change depending on how the "War on Terror" plays out...

JayBe
01-11-2004, 09:14 PM
Anyone from the USA without having seen fahrenheit 9/11 or without having a complete knowledge of what their fav. president did and will do, shouldnt vote.

seitanic
01-11-2004, 09:17 PM
Anyone from the USA without having seen fahrenheit 9/11...

Let's not bring Michael Moore into this.

Liam
01-11-2004, 09:18 PM
The election is tomorrow?

How could I fucking forget. It gets more airplay over here than local news, which I think is terrible. To be honest, I dont care who wins. Things cant get much worse.

hasselbrad
01-11-2004, 09:28 PM
Anyone from the USA without having seen fahrenheit 9/11 or without having a complete knowledge of what their fav. president did and will do, shouldnt vote.

Thank you for that bulletin. And...I'll do my best to keep it funky.

The Black Rider
01-11-2004, 09:42 PM
The election is tomorrow?

How could I fucking forget. It gets more airplay over here than local news, which I think is terrible. To be honest, I dont care who wins. Things cant get much worse.

I totally agree. The world will be exactly the same in four years time, whether Bush is elected or Kerry is.

hasselbrad
01-11-2004, 09:45 PM
I totally agree. The world will be exactly the same in four years time, whether Bush is elected or Kerry is.

WTF?!?!? You mean the world's not going to spin off its axis? :p

Liam
01-11-2004, 09:55 PM
Be good if it did. The momentary feeling of weightlessness would more than outway the screaming, fiery death that would come shortly after.

marry rich people
01-11-2004, 10:13 PM
It don't like either of them much but I dislike Bush more so I'd vote for Kerry (if I was old enough). It frustrates me because either way, nearly half of the population will be disappointed. I say everybody votes for Nader so the we can all be disappointed together.

CFC
01-11-2004, 10:19 PM
I fear the world will laugh at our ineptitude to count votes despite our financial and technological resources.

frodo1511
01-11-2004, 10:23 PM
Bush'll probably win, but honestly, I don't really care(now).

I'm tired as hell of all the ads on TV, so I'm giving thanks to God that after tommorow I won't see anymore. :Hail:

GuinevereRox
01-11-2004, 10:56 PM
I'm tired as hell of all the ads on TV, so I'm giving thanks to God that after tommorow I won't see anymore. :Hail:

Me 2, I'm am so sick of all these political ads, I wanna scream everytime they come on. I do hope Bush wins though, I can't stand Kerry.



BUSH `04

Narg
01-11-2004, 11:07 PM
Seriously couldnt give a damn, they have been, and will be, drilling it into our faces from all types of media. So sick of it, and about all that vandalism and shit, Dosnt happen over here, I guess i have to be gratefull about somthing.

CFC
01-11-2004, 11:08 PM
I have to wake up early to get to the polls before school tomorrow.

Richard
01-11-2004, 11:09 PM
I'm required to watch the election. I think it'll be interesting.

I'm for Kerry, if anybody cares.

marry rich people
01-11-2004, 11:11 PM
I love how all the liberals really think there is going to be a draft.

Well, Bush did technically say there was going to be a draft himself...

Hazzle
02-11-2004, 02:21 AM
Well, Bush did technically say there was going to be a draft himself...

True but since when do we care what he SAYS? The man disregards what his speech writers tell him to say...but he doesn't actually make the crucial decisions anyway...

The draft was actually an idea drummed up by the Democrats...as anti-Bush propoganda...it's amazing how gullible some people are...though I shouldn't be surprised that a nation unable to actually fucking vote (wait, that was just Florida) is idiotic enough to buy the propoganda. It's easy to make anti-Bush propoganda, because he's in a position to be shot down...he's done IMPORTANT stuff...Kerry's record as a Senator is small fries compared to Bush's record as a president...if Kerry wins it's more because people hate Bush than because Kerry'd be a good president...which is a terribly sad state of affairs.

Don't bring Michael Moore into this as thanks to that fucktard you may end up with a President who was elected NOT because he's well suited to the job but just because you don't think the other guy is. Bush IS a better president than Kerry ever could be...he's not the man for the job. Sure, there may be a Democrat who could do a better job than Bush (his name is Al Gore) but he chose not to stand...vote FOR a president, not AGAINST one, please...that's just such a fucktard way to vote.

Vandalism...not good. How pathetic are some people? What happened to "The Land of the Free"?

I hope Bush wins, and I think he will...even Democrats have to admit Kerry's the underdog...but every underdog has its day as they say.

Fox
02-11-2004, 02:58 AM
Hazzle,

I can only hope that Bush, Jr. is defeated and I agree with your statements regarding draft rumors.

Rumors of a secret plan to reinstate the draft are churning across the Internet, worrying some in Congress and even coloring the presidential campaign, but senior Pentagon personnel officials and Army officers insist that there is no need for a draft -- and that they do not want one, either.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/eagle/news/nation/10059049.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/31/politics/31draft1.html

Hazzle
02-11-2004, 03:02 AM
Hazzle,

I can only hope that Bush, Jr. is defeated

Err...any reason why, since I'm not the only pro-Bush person to post on this thread...you addressed that point to me? I don't care if he wins or not, to be honest...I just KNOW he's a better president than Kerry would be.

and I agree with your statements regarding draft rumors.


I said the IDEA of a draft. So I was clearly referring to the rumours.

It's a a load of Democrat bullshit. End of.

Fox
02-11-2004, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Hazzle:
Err...any reason why, since I'm not the only pro-Bush person to post on this thread.

I am not sure why you're pro-Bush? These are the ISSUES I will be voting on:

1. The economy
2. The war on terror
3. Healthcare
4. Who has the best exit stradegy for Iraq
5. The candidate who will do the least damage to porn/ who is the most anti censorship.
6. Medicinal Marijuana
7. Abortion rights
8. Gay Marriage
9. Stem cell research
10. The enviroment

Who do you think was the top priority in The War On Terror? Osama Bin Laden and al-Queda, or Sadam, and Iraq?

bob
02-11-2004, 03:39 AM
6. Medicinal Marijuana
yeah right... :p

just a thought, yesterday i saw a clip of bush giving a speech. he spoke with confidence and what seemed like emotion. of course he was reading off from notes (pausing every line to read the next) and the subject itself was of very little substance: "we will vote *insert emotive adjective*, we will vote *insert another emotive adjective*, and we will vote *insert another emotive adjective*".

and of course everyone cheered and clapped, but what i found amusing was the look of pride on bush's face. it was kinda cute, like a little kid who said his a-b-c's in front of the class as they all gave the obligatory round of clapping after finishing with 'z'.

these are just my random thoughts and observations by the way. they really don't mean anything politically, so don't take offense to it if you're republican.

Nick
02-11-2004, 04:02 AM
To address the vandalism issue I would like to point out how incredibly biased you people are being. You make it sound as if it's only the Democrats who are committing acts of vandalism, I've seen just as many Kerry signs ripped down as Bush signs.

hasselbrad
02-11-2004, 12:15 PM
To address the vandalism issue I would like to point out how incredibly biased you people are being. You make it sound as if it's only the Democrats who are committing acts of vandalism, I've seen just as many Kerry signs ripped down as Bush signs.

That's funny. I haven't seen reports of Republican operatives barging into Democratic headquarters, assaulting workers and vandalizing the building. This happened in Tampa, Orlando and in two cities up north. Admittedly, I've tuned a lot out over the last couple of weeks because I've grown increasingly weary of the bullshit, but most, if not all, of the serious instances of vandalism (i.e. trespassing) I've seen videotape of, have been Kerry supporters.
I watched a report on CBS (surprise of surprises) which documented several instances of vandalism. In all fairness, there was an 18 year old boy who threatened to kill his girlfriend if she voted for Kerry. He needs to be put to sleep.
Of course, this incident can be counterbalanced by the registered Democrat who threatened Katherine Harris and her supporters with his car. He claimed he was just "expressing his political opinion". He's been charged with assault with a deadly weapon.

Sarah
02-11-2004, 02:19 PM
I don't think it really matters, to be honest.

The world is doomed, anyway.

marry rich people
02-11-2004, 03:41 PM
The whole vandalism issue doesn't matter either way. Both sides are just as equally heated. There are just some crazy people (from any party) that can't hold their anger down. I'm a strong democrat and I truly dislike most of Bush's policies and one of my best friends loves Bush (the president, I mean) but I would never have some fit and attack her or anybody else and their property. It's not a purely Democratic or Republican thing; it's just dumbass people that think they can change minds through violence.

Fox
02-11-2004, 04:02 PM
I am going to vote now. The lines will be long and arduous, but I must cast my vote for John Kerry, which is my vote to cast away that provincial, dishonest, reactionary, feckless, and arrogant American chauvin, George Bush, Jr. and his cabinet of knaves, fools, frauds, hypocrites, and murderous liars. The race is so close, so much so that no one in the press can predict who will win.

I am not a religious woman, but tonight I say a prayer. Please God, Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Goddess, and the Greco-Roman pantheon: REMOVE this Bush, Jr.!! He and his administration have alienated America from its traditional allies in Europe… the same allies that helped keep the peace in the nuclear age for over 50 years… enflamed anti-Western rage, damaged Israel's security and moral standing by caving in to its Right-wing, including Sharon; the Bush, Jr. administration has exacerbated class privileges in America, assaulted environmental safeguards, Civil Rights, Women's rights, reproductive rights; the list goes on and on.


Fox

marry rich people
02-11-2004, 06:10 PM
Wow, that shut everybody up.

Mags
02-11-2004, 06:33 PM
I voted, it sucked, read about it here (http://magbag.blogspot.com/)


Wooo!.


Go Kerry!

Jacoby
02-11-2004, 07:36 PM
I voted for Shrimp Poppers in the cafeteria. Chicken Fingers won.

Damn you, Chicken Fingers.

PhoeniX
02-11-2004, 07:51 PM
What is the voting age in America, in England no-one seems to vote but I would say, Liberal Democrats are the only party to no cock up Britian (but I am only young so I do not know but I do understand) apart from all the faschist right wing parties like BNP. But who cares about them..

CFC
02-11-2004, 08:10 PM
18 to vote

marry rich people
02-11-2004, 10:50 PM
Stupid amendment

Jacoby
02-11-2004, 11:37 PM
I have no view points on politics because I hate you.

But I want this shirt:

http://www.flaminglips.com/store/productDetails/t_m_xmas/detail.jpg http://www.flaminglips.com/store/productDetails/t_m_xmas/detail2.jpg

frodo1511
03-11-2004, 12:05 AM
Jake, if you find two, buy me one.
Please.

Hazzle
03-11-2004, 12:07 AM
He and his administration have alienated America from its traditional allies in Europe… the same allies that helped keep the peace in the nuclear age for over 50 years…

Errr...not really. The French are about as much use to anyone as a fridge is to an Eskimo. The Germans have been pacifistic since 1945. The Spanish actually backed the war, as did the only true European ally America has had to rely upon, the good ole UK.

enflamed anti-Western rage

Yeah 3000 dead in the WTC attack alone wasn't the manifestation of anti-western rage, was it? FFS had Clinton actually responded to the Embassy bombings by bombing the fucking bejesus out of Afghanistan and ended the rule of the Taliban, I say 9-11 wouldn't have happened. The only response to violence must be violence, the only way to achieve peace is war. The only language terrorists understand IS that of brutal attrocities...so why shouldn't we commit them upon their people? I have no sympathy for them...though I can understand why many of them become terrorists. Understanding does not require sympathy.

damaged Israel's security and moral standing by caving in to its Right-wing, including Sharon

Err...you'll find the Bush administration is the first US government to actually officially recognise the two state solution. So you're misinformed there...the only two obstacles standing in the way of peace in Israel are Sharon and Arafat, since America, like every other major nation, has now accepted the two state solution. You'll find Clinton, the last Democrat president, always maintained Israel's sovereignty was paramount.

the Bush, Jr. administration has exacerbated class privileges in America

You mean those caused by capitalism? Please tell me you're not a communist. Capitalism and social inequality go hand in hand...I've always felt the best situation was not to tax the rich to help the poor but to tax the rich less so that they can afford to be generous, if they WISH, to the poor. I mean I'm always more than generous when I donate to charity or to beggars and those less fortunate than myself...I don't need a fucking nanny state to tell me where my money should go.

assaulted environmental safeguards

Meh...like this world is so great it's worth protecting...

Civil Rights

You mean those that are actually unconstitutional or those that actually HAVE constitutional backing in the TEXT?

Women's rights, reproductive rights

Which don't actually exist under the US constitution. I'm all in favour of a woman's right to choose...it's just not protected under the constitution.

I'd vote Bush because he's a realist...Kerry, like most Democrats, lives in a fucking fantasy world. We ARE at war with certain terrorist organisations...whether we like it or not. If you wanted to alleviate the poverty of the middle east...the time to do it was 25 years ago...not now. It's like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Try reading this (http://chilperic.blogspot.com/). The man talks sense.

CFC
03-11-2004, 12:11 AM
If Kerry wins, and the Dems win the senate......

I'm gonna quit the internet.

frodo1511
03-11-2004, 12:15 AM
If Kerry wins, and the Dems win the senate......

I'm gonna quit the internet.

If they win, I'm uber-virusing the internet.
EVERYONE WILL SUFFER.

UPDATE: 7:20pm, november 2nd.

Bush 66, Kerry 77

still early, though...

johnnyboy
03-11-2004, 12:29 AM
If I was 18, and an American citizen, I would vote Kerry

CFC
03-11-2004, 12:41 AM
thankfully your not

bob
03-11-2004, 12:51 AM
If Kerry wins, and the Dems win the senate......

I'm gonna quit the internet.
that's not the right attitude :(

johnnyboy
03-11-2004, 12:55 AM
thankfully your not

Even so, I would enjoy slapping Bush around a bit with a large trout

Jacoby
03-11-2004, 01:03 AM
If Kerry wins, and the Dems win the senate......

I'm gonna quit the internet.

The Dems. The Dems and The Repubs. West hemisphere Story. I'm not funny.

I've Kerry wins, and you return, I'll have you banned. I have that power maybe. Well, no I don't.

Hazzle
03-11-2004, 01:09 AM
The Dems. The Dems and The Repubs. West hemisphere Story. I'm not funny.

Hahaha...Jacoby made a funny that actually made me laugh. GG mate.

CFC
03-11-2004, 03:08 AM
Well it is not looking too good for the Dems in the Senate, so it looks like I won't have to quit.

Fox
03-11-2004, 05:50 AM
A History lesson for Hazzle

Originally Posted by Fox
He and his administration have alienated America from its traditional allies in Europe… the same allies that helped keep the peace in the nuclear age for over 50 years…

Errr...not really. The French are about as much use to anyone as a fridge is to an Eskimo. The Germans have been pacifistic since 1945. The Spanish actually backed the war, as did the only true European ally America has had to rely upon, the good ole UK.

enflamed anti-Western rage

Yeah 3000 dead in the WTC attack alone wasn't the manifestation of anti-western rage, was it? FFS had Clinton actually responded to the Embassy bombings by bombing the fucking bejesus out of Afghanistan and ended the rule of the Taliban, I say 9-11 wouldn't have happened. The only response to violence must be violence, the only way to achieve peace is war. The only language terrorists understand IS that of brutal attrocities...so why shouldn't we commit them upon their people? I have no sympathy for them...though I can understand why many of them become terrorists. Understanding does not require sympathy.

damaged Israel's security and moral standing by caving in to its Right-wing, including Sharon

Err...you'll find the Bush administration is the first US government to actually officially recognise the two state solution. So you're misinformed there...the only two obstacles standing in the way of peace in Israel are Sharon and Arafat, since America, like every other major nation, has now accepted the two state solution. You'll find Clinton, the last Democrat president, always maintained Israel's sovereignty was paramount.

the Bush, Jr. administration has exacerbated class privileges in America
You mean those caused by capitalism? Please tell me you're not a communist. Capitalism and social inequality go hand in hand...I've always felt the best situation was not to tax the rich to help the poor but to tax the rich less so that they can afford to be generous, if they WISH, to the poor. I mean I'm always more than generous when I donate to charity or to beggars and those less fortunate than myself...I don't need a fucking nanny state to tell me where my money should go.

assaulted environmental safeguards

Meh...like this world is so great it's worth protecting...

Civil Rights

You mean those that are actually unconstitutional or those that actually HAVE constitutional backing in the TEXT?

Women's rights, reproductive rights

Which don't actually exist under the US constitution. I'm all in favour of a woman's right to choose...it's just not protected under the constitution.

I'd vote Bush because he's a realist...Kerry, like most Democrats, lives in a fucking fantasy world. We ARE at war with certain terrorist organisations...whether we like it or not. If you wanted to alleviate the poverty of the middle east...the time to do it was 25 years ago...not now. It's like locking the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Try reading this (http://chilperic.blogspot.com/). The man talks sense.

Hazzle, Part 1

I was educated and excelled in History at one the greatest universities of the world. Let me riposte, with Hazzle, of course, but firmly nonetheless. The "worthless" French have the most powerful independent nuclear in Europe since the early 1960s (more comprehensive than that of England's and all nationally built). France was indeed quite "useful" in throwing its moral and military support behind Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crises.

More recently, in the Bosnian conflict, it was the French air force and naval aerial arms... Mirage 2000-5 and Super Entendards... that were tasked with hitting the most heavily defended targets, as France's strike and air superiority configurations were and are more comprehensive than that of Britain (which depends upon primarily the Tornado strike-fighter bombers), or the other NATO nations, which depend primarily upon the American F-16s and F-18s and F-15s. One notes that no NATO soldiers were lost in the Bosian/Kosovo action, but Milosovic now stands at The Hague.

Fox
03-11-2004, 05:54 AM
Continued History lesson for Hazzle, Part 2

The "useless" French aerial forces (including advanced Mirage 2000-5s) struck against the Taliban in support of the beleaguered American ground forces, a testament to its expeditionary capabilities, which every serious military historian acknowledges is the best Europe currently has, Britain included (the American weekly, "Newsweek"... hardly a Europhilic publication... featured a former American general of NATO command in an interview in which he acknowledged the French air forces as, and I quote, "State of the Art," and the nation's expeditionary capabilities as Europe's best. The title of the article is, "Surrender Monkeys? NOT").

You ought to know, by the way, that Britain could not provide the aerial support to the level that the French did during the Balkins crises and the Afghanistan campaign. Britain must support America as a matter of self-interest. Britain's entire identity, history, and geo-political presence are all shaped by some 400 years of Protestant history. It can NEVER throw its lot in with continental Europe, which for all of the economic power of Germany, is still dominated militarily and politically by a Catholic, Latin power: France.

Let no one confuse that the term "Ally" with that of "Vassal." An ally tells its friends what they need to hear, not just what they want. A vassal, by contrast, tells its mightier friend exactly what it wants to hear and will do its mightier friend's bidding, no matter the consequences, rationality, or morality of the bidding. In this, "Le Menteur" Chirac was more the true ally than Blair ever was, for it was Chirac's team who warned Bush, Jr. of the difficulties he would encounter in attempting to occupy a Muslim country.

Let the historical record show that Le Grand Menteur Chirac was a Lieutenant in the Algerian War, which gave him more than a passing notion as to how a Muslim populace would deal with a Christian occupying force.

Let the historical record show that it was "honest" and "bright" Blair who lied, exaggerated, and blundered his way into following Bush, Jr. into the Calderon, thus drawing America away from its real enemy... al Qaeda, into a quagmire in which America has killed and wounded some 100, 000 Iraqis, demolished the myth of American invincibility, and wounded and killed thousands of American soldiers.

In this, I would argue, forcefully and without apology or quarter, that le vieux Menteur, Jacques Chirac, was more of an ally, and has been more of a true ally, than our silver-tongued golden boy, Blair. And let no one doubt that under Blair, Britain has gone from "true European ally" to gutless Vassal, a role that has pleased many an ignorant American, but helped draw it into disaster.

I disagree with your assessment of 9/11 in the strongest possible terms. Bin Laden is a religious warrior who equates America with Israel. It is nothing that Clinton but rather America's presence in Saudi Arabia, its unquestioned support of Israel, and American cultural, political, and military hegemony that so conflicts with Bin Laden's millenarian visions. You also forget that Bin Laden has targeted other Western powers long before Clinton took any action against him. In 1994, in a virtual blueprint for the 9/11 attack, the Bin Laden-affiliated "Algerian Jihad" hijacked an Air France Airbus full of passengers with the intention of crashing it into the Eiffel Tower. Unlike 9/11, the terrorists did not have their own pilots; the French Special Forces fought and killed them in a desperate battle on the runway. Some of the stated aims of the Algerian Jihad concerned France's foreign policy, but just as much of it reflected Bin Laden's millenarian theology, and this all pre-dated Clinton's actions of the late 1990s.

I might suggest readings of the learned Arabists Gilles Kaplan, Olivier Roi, and as well as the premier Al Qaeda journalist Peter Berger, all of whom explore militant Islam in general and al Qaeda in particular.

I have no sympathy whatsoever regarding those who slaughtered thousands in New York City, and among those victims were my friends. The studio in which I was modeling is but five minutes from and directly up the street from the WTC. We saw everything in all of its horror and carnage. I wholeheartedly support military action against the enemies who committed this atrocity: Al-Qaeda.

But Saddam Hussein is not, nor has he ever had any formal, operational relationship with Bin Laden. In this, the Bush, Jr. administration lied, for the evidence was manifest and all of was against what Bush, Jr. claimed. My anger with Bush, Jr. is that he is waging war on the wrong enemy, for the wrong reasons, using lies, dissimulations, and mendacity to justify his administrations actions. And his actions have not only caused 100, 000 Iraqi deaths, many of whom are innocent civilians, wounded thousands of American soldiers and killed over 1000 of them, but just as unforgivable, he has made America far more vulnerable due to rising anti-Americanism and the revelation that America's military might is neither infallible nor omniscient.

Thus, my anger is not of a misplaced love of the enemy, but rather a cold, realist's review of geo-political realities. Bush, Jr. has weakened America, he did nothing to stop the attack on America when he was warned by his own anti-terrorist cabinet member (Richard Clarke), and numerous intelligence sources.

You, Hazzle you are completely and utterly wrong about Bush, Jr. being the "first" American world figure to recognize the "two state" solution to the Israeli and Palestinian conflict, shockingly so, I am afraid. You might try looking up the "Balfour Agreement," of the early 20th century, by which imperial Britain proposed the two state solutions. Clinton's ENTIRE Middle East policy was predicated upon a two-state solution between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and indeed the historic meeting of Arafat and the late Rabin on the Whitehouse lawn in the early nineties was in recognition of and commitment to the steps to be taken to securing a peace treaty and a TWO STATE SOLUTION by which the Palestinian Authority would be the legitimate government of the nation of Palestine. You ought to remember that an Israeli soldier who was an adherent of the fundamentalist Jewish Settler movement assassinated Rabin. The reason? By embracing Clinton's TWO-STATE solution, Rabin was "betraying" the Jews-only model of "greater Israel," which would subsume and take over all Palestinian land, based upon a notion of the God's "covenant" stipulating a Israel's border and Jewish population per the Bible.

I have never been a Communist, nor have I ever sympathized, admired, or in any way seen any benefit to Marx's "scientific" philosophy. I have read Marx extensively, and while I admit that he was a genius, I have always argued that the mass murders, criminality, and sheer bloody-minded destruction of humanity and the environment that each and every Communist regime ever undertook has its roots in Marx's manifestos. In this, I would strongly recommend reading, "Le Livre Noir du Communisme," "Le Passé d'une Illusion," by distinguished historians Stéphane Courtois and the late François Furet; additionally, any work by Raymond Aron and Bernard Henri-Levi will provide illuminating critique of Marxist theory; works by survivors of the Communist regimes provide ample witness to history as to the nightmare of Marx's utopian fantasies.

I will attest to German economic history (although I studied quite a bit about Bismark and, of course, Weimer and Hitler), but suffice to say that your reading of American and British class privilege has absolutely no support in the actual historical record. It was only unions, agitation, progressive legislation (starting in the 1890s "progressive movement" on through Teddy Roosevelt, Al Smith of New York, and of course Roosevelt's "New Deal") that brought about any meaningful democratization of economic, social, and political access. The rich are like any other group that has a monopoly of power; they will NEVER volunteer to give away their advantages; why should they? But a society based upon democratic principles CAN NEVER be truly democratic unless it challenges any monopoly of power, be that power economic, racial, gendered, or cultural. This does not mean that one supports the so-called "Nanny State" without reservation; for after all, the Nanny State itself concentrates power among a few.

Yet, the basic health, education, and the very power of law that makes capitalism possible are themselves only possible through a powerful, centralized government, which has been argued by every major thinker since Adam Smith. The only real question is to what degree the state and to what realms of the public weal should the state have primacy.

My central argument with American Conservatives is that they deny, bowdlerize, and or deform the very works, theories, and laws upon which America is based in regards to the role of the government. And there is a central and overriding hypocrisy about the Conservative Americans' complaints about the "Nanny State," for in fact money and power have been accruing at an alarming rate at the top percentile of American society, while the middle and working classes have seen their salaries stagnate, access to higher education close, and legal protections covering body, environment, freedom of dissent, etc. evaporate.

I would be most happy to provide you an extremely extensive reading list of America's and Britain's most distinguished economic/political historians, all of whom provide irrefutable support for my rebuttal.

Fox
03-11-2004, 05:56 AM
Continued History lesson for Hazzle, Part 3

You have seriously misread the American Constitution, and indeed the role of Congress and the Senate. The founders clearly meant Constitution as " a living ": document, i.e. subject to interpretation and amendments as American society expanded and evolved; hence the term and mechanism of the "Constitutional Amendment." Civil Rights were encoded at the end of the American Civil War; they were on the books for the next one hundred years, but were not acted upon until the upheavals of the 1960s. President Kennedy's and Johnson's civil rights laws drew upon PRECEDENCE, which is the very basis of America's rule of law. Furthermore, it is the role of Congress and the Senate to enact and laws in response to America's needs and most certainly the "people's will"... even to propose Constitutional Amendments, and it is the role of the Supreme Court to interpret the validity of said laws, drawing upon legal precedence or establishing it.

In this, the Civil Rights Laws are not only Constitutional (based upon Precedence of the post Civil War rulings and laws) and Constitutional language (framers' intent) but also the Supreme Courts precedence-making rulings since the late 1940s.

Again, I would be happy to provide you an extensive historical-legal reading list in this regard.

I can't possibly understand how you could view Bush, Jr. as a "realist" when he has so distorted the historical record, his own intelligence establishments' findings, and the advisement of nearly everyone of the America's traditional allies. Bush, Jr. is a ideologue and a born-again Christian; there is nothing of the realist in either his discourse or his actions. Furthermore, Bush, Jr. has no claim to "realist" aspirations as he never fought in a war, nor even visited a foreign country prior to his becoming President.

By contrast, Kerry fought in the Vietnam War; he is superbly educated, bi-lingual, and has a strong command of history, economics, and international relations as they are, and not as some ideology or Jesus-besotted, provincial and ignorant Middle-American would have it be in his or her benighted fantasy world.

I have never claimed that the Middle East is "impoverished." This is a chimeria bordering on the ridiculous, especially since the many nations in the Middle East have the largest oil reserves in teh world. The question is why is the Middle East so benighted and anti-democratic a region, when Islam once produced a civilization far superior to and far more tolerant than its European counterparts during the Middle Ages.

I found the blog site you posted fairly typical of American "reasoning," in that it was coarse and humourous, but hardly edifying.

But of course, Hazzle, disagrees about much. I somehow get the feeling that you are exaggerating your positions (some of them are simply unsustainable given the historical record), but it is of no matter. We have much to argue, think over, and explore, which is, after all, what friends do, do they not?

So, I disagree with passion and respect, happy to bring my education and sources to bear, but happier still that we are debating.

Fox

deviljet88
03-11-2004, 06:58 AM
... You've outdone yourself Fox... That must take the cake from Nearoka for the longest post. *takes the prestigious "I type too much on KKW" trophy from Nearoka's cupboard and places it on Fox's bookshelf* And Bush seems to be winning. Is anyone quitting kkw because of this, couldn't understand some of the bets and promises.

CFC
03-11-2004, 10:05 AM
[B]
Bin Laden is a religious warrior who equates America with Israel.
Fox

We call those people terrorists.

And I can't believe you are going to seriously argue that Frace has an Air Force comparable to the United States. The retardedness of that is unmeasurable.

bob
03-11-2004, 02:02 PM
Bin Laden is a religious warrior who equates America with Israel.
Fox
We call those people terrorists.

And I can't believe you are going to seriously argue that Frace has an Air Force comparable to the United States. The retardedness of that is unmeasurable.
'immeasurable', isn't it? don't quote me on that.

"religious warrior" hahaha... that almost beats 'krispy kreme' when it comes to oxymorons.

hasselbrad
03-11-2004, 02:22 PM
"religious warrior" hahaha... that almost beats 'krispy kreme' when it comes to oxymorons.

But not for "deliciocity". :p

Jacoby
03-11-2004, 07:01 PM
Bush for another four years. Now we'll never get Johnny Depp back. :(

Jacoby
03-11-2004, 07:13 PM
I was rooting for Kerry. But I knew half-way through the election Bush was gonna take the cake. Lucky him.

I don't know or care for politics, but in 2008 I will vote for my first time... and if Hilary Clinton considers running for President, she will get my vote and that would make history. It's time to put a skirt in office.

It would more smart for her to serve as a vice-president. That way, some woman would assassinate the President, and Hilary would end up in office. Good luck, Hil.

Edit: Lol, wtf, Richard?

Richard
03-11-2004, 07:16 PM
It would more smart for her to serve as a vice-president. That way, some woman would assassinate the President, and Hilary would end up in office. Good luck, Hil.

Edit: Lol, wtf, Richard?

I felt my response belonged in the thread CFC made. So I deleted it.. haha. :)

Hazzle
04-11-2004, 01:52 AM
Fox I would read all of that but quite frankly you bored me. I never thought I'D be the one to say this to anyone but...try being a little more concise, eh? I'm going to be putting you on "ignore" until you can learn to post a useful SUMMARY of your points...thanks very much all the same for the lesson.

Oh yes...one little thing about the French? No Frenchman has ever won a war...interesting little fact that :p

hasselbrad
04-11-2004, 12:30 PM
Will all of the Frenchman please raise their right hand...okay, now raise the left so we can get this over with.
:D

DragonRat
04-11-2004, 08:40 PM
OK, considering that the election is already over, this thread will be closed. I believe there are at least one other thread concerning the consequences of the election, and Bush's presidency. Please consider those for your everyday KKW political diatribes.